<> <> <> <> <> <> <> Q: Good morning, Mr. Simpson. A: Good morning. Q: Did you review any documents last night for this depo? A: No. Q: Talk to anybody other than lawyers about the deposition? A: No. Q: When you went up the -- Withdrawn. When you came down the stairs, picked up the golf cover bag and signaled to the limousine driver and then went inside the house, did you then turn on any lights? A: If the coach lights weren't on by then, I may have turned the coach lights on at that time. Q: Did you turn the coach lights on before you came out the door or after you went in the house? A: As I said, if they -- possibly, if they weren't on then before then, I may have turned them on then. I don't recall.. Q: Before you actually stepped out? A: I don't recall if I did it before or as I turned and came back in. I just don't recall. Q: The light switch is on the inside? A: Yeah. And I may have done that, yes. Q: May have done what? A: Turned on the coach lights. Q: Before you picked up the golf bag and showed it to the limo driver or after? A: As I told you, I'm not sure if I did it before or after, but I may have. One or the other. Q; Was the entryway light on at that time when you came down the stairs? A: I don't believe so. Q: And did you turn that light on when you went in the house after you picked up the golf cover bag? A: I may have, but I know my lamp was on, so I may not have. Q: You have a separate lamp and a separate light in the entryway. Correct? A: Yes. Q: So your best recollection now is that you turned the coach lights on but not the entryway light? A: I may have. Q: You may have. A: Yes. Q: You're just not sure. A: Just not sure. Q: And you are not sure if you turned it on before or after you came out of the house? MR. BAKER: It's asked and answered. You covered this all -- MR. PETROCELLI: I don't think I did, Mr. Baker, because I have a little notation here that I didn't. I was just trying to clarify this point. MR. BAKER: Okay. Go on. MR. PETROCELLI: Can you let him answer that question? MR. BAKER: Sure. Go ahead. THE WITNESS: I may have. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: And you are not sure if you turned on the coach lights before or after you came out of the house. Is that correct? A: That's correct. Q: Who was -- Withdrawn. At some point on the 13th of June when you were at the Rockingham property with Lange and your lawyers, Lange then left. Right? A: I don't know. Q: At some point the police were gone, and you were in your home on the evening of June 13 without anybody from LAPD there. Is that right? A: That's correct. Q: And you were with some of your close friends and family. Right? A: Correct. Q: Who was there that evening with you? A: I'll just take a guess. My family, my immediate sisters and my mom Q: I need you to just give me the names. Your mother Eunice? A: Yes. Q: Your sisters who? A: Carmelita and Shirley. Q: Yeah. A: My brother-in-law, Benny Baker. Q: First name? A: Benny Baker. Q: Benny? A: Baker. Q: Yes. A: I believe members of his family may have been there. I'm not sure. Q: Benny's married to Shirley? A: Yes. Nieces and stuff may have been there. Q: Their children, in other words? A: Yes. Q: Anyone else? A: I believe, as the night went on, my son and my daughter. Q: Jason and Arnelle? A: Yes. I'm sure Cathy Randa was there. Bob Kardashian was there. And then there was just so many people coming in and out. Q: Who came in and out? A: I can't even recall all of them. I can't. Some of them -- I think Ron Shipp was there. Joe Stellini I think I recall being there. I may have mentioned Kardashian. And there was just people coming and going. Q: Can you remember anybody else Mr. Simpson? A: Not right now, no. Q: Who is Joe Stellini? A: A friend of mine. Q: For a number of years? A: Yes. Q: Is that the man who owns Stellini's? A: Used to, yes. Q: He doesn't own it anymore? A: I don't think it's open anymore. Q: You had a conversation with Ron Shipp that evening? A: I don't recall having a conversation with Ron other than general whatever everybody was saying to me. Oh, Kato was there. Q: Kato Kaelin? A: Yes. Q: Tell me what you said to Ron Shipp, Mr. Simpson. A: I don't -- Other than what everybody was asking me, how I was feeling, they were expressing their condolences, and it would have been in that vein. Q: Shipp was expressing his condolences to you? A: Yes. Q: For the loss of Nicole? A: Yes. Q: And he had known Nicole himself. Right? A: Yes. Q: Did you and he ever talk alone? A: No. Q: Are you positive? A: Yes. Q: Why are you so sure of that? A: Because my sister and my mom. l was with them all the time. When I went upstairs, it sort a was irritating that my sisters stayed with me, you know, and at times I got a little irritated. Q: At times you got irritated about what? A: Just irritated because you want to be alone, because I wanted to be alone and they wouldn't let me be alone. Q: Did you ask folks to leave? A: No. Q: When you went upstairs, you mean to your bedroom? A: Yes. Q: At any time that evening was Ron Shipp upstairs with you in your bedroom? A: I don't know. People -- various people came up when they were leaving to say good-bye, and he may have been one of them. Q: And if he came up to say good-bye in your bedroom, were you and he alone at that time? A: If he were, no. Q: Who was with the two of you, you and Shipp? A: I don't know if he ever came up. MR. BAKER: Assuming that he ever came up. THE WITNESS: I don't know if he ever came up, so I can't say that. I just know my sister Shirley or my sister Carmelita were with me all the time. They just would not let me be alone. And my cousin -- and my brother-in-law Benny. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: They were with you all the time in the bedroom? A: Yes. Q: When did they leave your bedroom? A: I don't think they ever did. Q: They slept there with you? A: Yes. Q: In the same bed? A: No. Q: Where? On the floor? A: No. Q: Is there another bed in there? A: No. Q: Where did they sleep? A: On the couch. Q: In your bedroom. A: Yes. Q: Who slept on that couch that evening? A: My sister Shirley and Benny. I saw them from time to time. Q: Benny slept in the room, too? A: Yes. Q: Where did he sleep? A: On the couch Q: There are two couches? A: It's an L-shaped couch. Q: So the entire time you were up in your bedroom, from the moment you went up there until the moment you got up in the morning, your sister Shirley was with you. Is that right? A: Yes. Q: And was anyone else with you that entire time? A: I don't know -- For the entire time? Q: Yeah. A: Oh, I don't know. I mean, there were people that came and went, as I told you before. Q: Now, Mr. Shipp and you had a discussion that evening about a polygraph test? A: I don't recall that, no. Q: Is it your memory that that conversation did not occur? A: Yes. Q: Did you say to Ron Shipp something to the effect like, "How long does it take for the blood work to come back" or "blood tests to come back"? A: I don't believe so. Q: Did you have any conversation with Shipp about blood tests or DNA tests? A: No. Q: You're pretty clear on that? A: Yes. Q: Did you ask Shipp any questions about polygraph tests? A: No. Q: Have you ever taken a polygraph test? A: No. Q: I was going to say, since Nicole's death, have you taken a polygraph test? A: No. Q: Did you and Shipp discuss anything about polygraph tests? A: No. Q: Did you tell Ron Shipp, in reference to your statement to Vannatter and Lange about weird thoughts, that you were having weird thoughts that you might kill Nicole? A: No. Q: Did you tell Ron Shipp that you had had a dream about killing Nicole? A: No. Q: Did you say anything to Ron Shipp about dreams that evening? A: No. Q: Did you say anything to Ron Shipp about having weird thoughts about Nicole? A: No. Q: The Ron Shipp you knew was a former police officer. Correct? A: I know -- I knew he couldn't get back on the force, yes. Q: Why did you just add that? I didn't ask you that. MR. BAKER: Don't answer that question. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Well, Mr. Simpson, you appear to have some animosity toward Mr. Shipp. Is that correct? MR. BAKER: Don't answer that either. He doesn't appear to have anything. Maybe he does in your eyes but not in mine. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Do you have animosity towards Mr. Shipp right now? A: I feel sorry for Ron Shipp, yes. Q: Explain what you mean. A: I feel sorry that he's a troubled person, and I tried to help him before because he had some problems, and I tried to help him, and I feel the same way about him now. Q: Tell me what problems he has that you feel sorry for. A: Well, the problems I knew he had was drugs and alcohol, and now obviously I don't know. I haven't seen him in a year and a half, two years. Q: When did he have the drugs and alcohol problem that caused you to feel sorry for him? A: Previous to these incidences. Q: When was the last time that you knew or believed that he had a drug or alcohol problem.? A: Roughly a week or so before Nicole's murders. Q: How did you find that out? A: Because he was at my gate. Q: Uninvited? A: Yes. Q: Which gate? A: The Ashford gate. Q: How did you see him there? A: I didn't see him Q: How do you know he was there? A:: He was on my intercom. Q: He buzzed? A: Yes. Q: What did he say? A: He asked if he could use my Jacuzzi. Q: What did you say? A: Told him, "Ron, I was in bed." Q: What time was it? A: I don't know. At night. Q: Were you alone? A: Yes. Q: Was the housekeeper there? A: Maybe. I'm not sure. Q: What did he then say? A: He told me he had a big blond, a "Nicole type." quote, unquote. "You got to see this girl, OJ. Could he use the Jacuzzi told him I didn't think it was on. He told me it was on because he had been there earlier. Q: When you say you don't think it is on, you can simply turn it on, can't you? A: Yeah. Q: So then what happened? A: He kept saying, "I owe you, Juice. Please, man, I owe you. You got to see this girl." Q: What does that mean, he owes you? A: I guess if he owes me a favor. He will owe me a favor. Q: Oh, he will owe you if you give him this favor? A: Yeah. Q: Okay. Then what happened? A: Well, after he told me it was on, I pushed the gate button for him to come in and told him to watch the dog. Q: Did he tell you that he knew that the Jacuzzi was on from earlier that day? A: Yes. Q: Had he been out to your house? A: Evidently. Q: Did you know that? A: No. Q: Did he have access to your property? A: No. Q: How did he get on the property earlier that day? A: Well, one of the complaints that I've had previous that I had Cathy discuss with him through, because both Michelle and Gigi had concerns about it, is that he would show up at times, climb the wall and bring whoever group he was playing tennis with without telling anybody. When I was out of town also. Q: What wall would be climb? A: The Ashford wall. Q: Right next to this gate where the -- A: I don't know. I wasn't there to see what part of the wall he climbed. Q: You had told him he could come on your property and play tennis. Right? A: Only if he called first. As a matter of fact, I actually had Cathy have a conversation with him about that. Q: When did that conversation occur? A: In and around that time, and on previous times she's had to tell him,"Ron, you just can't show up at his house." Q: Mr. Simpson, when you said you wanted him to call first, did you also want someone else to be home when he arrived? A: I would prefer that, yes. Q: So someone could let him in? A: No. So that -- I just don't like a lot of people on my property if I'm out of town, and I was gone most of the time, so -- and the housekeepers didn't -- especially Gigi, because she was brand-new, she didn't know how to handle it, and she had mentioned it -- evidently she had mentioned it to Cathy, and then Cathy had mentioned it to me. Q: Did you tell Mr. Shipp that if no one was home and he wanted to play, he could jump the wall or -- A: No. Q: or get on the property? A: No. Q: So your understanding of your deal with him is that if -- that he shouldn't be jumping the wall and getting on the property to play tennis. Is that right? A: I had no deal with him. I don't think anybody should jump my wall without my permission. Q: And you told him so. Right? A: Yes. Q: Through Randa. A: Right. And I told him myself. This was something that had happened before. Q: Now, when he came in and used the Jacuzzi, did you see him that evening? A: Yes. Q: You were in bed. Right? A: Yes. Q: You came down to see him? A: No. Q: Tell me -- A: At one point I did. Q: What happened? A: He went to my intercom system out back, buzzed me -- Q: From the Jacuzzi? A: Well, in the backyard. And buzzed me and said, "Juice, please, man, you got to help me out here. I need a bottle of wine." I think I was speaking with Cathy Randa at that time and -- Q: On the phone? A: I said, "I'm on the phone, Ron." And he said once again this whole thing, and he described this girl as a "Nicole type." "You got to see her." And I said, "Ron, I don't even know if I have any wine." He said, "Ah, come on, Juice, please, man." So I got up. I went downstairs. I opened one of my patio doors. He walked in. I told him to look in the bar to see if there was some wine. I found a bottle that came in some - - one of the Christmas packages or some package somebody had sent me, and I opened it and -- I gave it to him and, as he was opening it, he said, "Man, you should go see her." And I walked out back, and she was I wouldn't say a Nicole type, but she was a big blond, real tall, I would say 5-10,5-11 blond girl. And she was in the Jacuzzi, and she was talking about what a great property and that she could get used to being here, and asked me to get in the Jacuzzi. And then Ron was coming out at that period of time and said, "Come on, man, why don't you join us? And I said, "No, man, I got to get up early in the morning," and I went back upstairs. Q: Were you dressed? A: Had a robe on. Q: What color? A: Dark robe. Q: The robe you usually wore? A: Yes. Q: Was that robe taken by the police? A: No. Q: Where was it? A: On the back door of my closet. Q: Is that a terry cloth robe? A: Yes, basically. Q: When you wear it, do you wear it open or closed? A: It depends. Obviously I didn't have it open because that girl was there, but I don't know. Sometimes open. Sometimes closed. Q: When you close it, do you tie it? A: Yes. Q: How far down does it go? A: Almost -- long robe, to my mid calf, I would say. Q: How long have you had that robe? A: Long time. Q: Where did you get it? A: Who knows. Q: Who gave it to you? A: Who knows. Q: Did you buy it? A: I doubt it. I never go to the store and buy robes, no. Q: What's a "Nicole type" mean? A: I would assume he was saying an athletic blond. Q: She didn't strike you as an athletic blond? A: She did, yes. Q: You said she didn't appear to be a Nicole type to you. A: In my opinion Nicole was much more attractive than she was, but outside of that, she was a big blond. Q: So a "Nicole type" to you met an attractive, athletic blond? A: Yeah, I think if I had to describe Nicole myself, I thought she was a gorgeous, athletic blond, yes. Q: When you went upstairs, is that the last you saw of Shipp? A: Yes. Q: And how did you understand he would exit the property that evening? A: Out the gate, I would presume. Q: Did he know about how to get in and out of the Ashford gate by pushing it open, as you had described? A: I would assume so, but he also would have known probably to push the button. Q: Did Ron Shipp see you in the robe? A: Yes. Q: What is this woman's name? A: I have no idea. Q: Did you ever see her again? A: No. Q: Is that the first time you had ever seen her? A: As far as I know, yes. Q: You said you don't go to the store to buy robes. Do you buy clothing in the stores? A: Yes. Q: What stores did you shop in to buy clothing three years before Nicole's death? A: I don't know. Hundreds of them. Q: Five years before? A: Hundreds of stores. Q: What clothing did you go and buy? A: Shirts, shoes, pants, suits. Q: You buy in Los Angeles clothing stores? A: Yes. Q: Do you ever make arrangements with the store to go there to shop when no one else is around? A: Never. Q: When it's closed or after hours? A: Never have in my life. Q: Before Nicole's death, when was the last time you had purchased clothing in a store? Do you remember? A: No. Q: When you shop for clothing, do you shop alone? A: It depends. If somebody's with me, I'm with someone. If somebody's not, I'm not with anyone. Q: Did Paula ever buy you clothing from time to time? A: Yes. Q: Did Nicole? A: Yes. Q: They knew your sizes? A: Of some things. yeah. Q: Did you ever shop at any major department stores? A: Yes. Q: Name some. A: May Company, Emporium, Macy's Q: Emporium? A: Yeah. In New York, Bloomingdale's. What's the other big -- Gumbel's, Gump's -- Q: Gumbel's? A: Yeah. Gimbel's, Gumbel's. Q: Gimbel's. A: Gimbel's, Gump's, Neiman-Marcus. You name it. Q: Did Nicole ever shop in these stores for you? A: I would assume so. Q: Did Nicole ever shop in Bloomingdale's in New York for you? A: Possibly. Q: Did you and she ever shop together at Bloomingdale's in New York? A: Yes. Q: Did Paula ever shop in Bloomingdale's in New York for you? A: For me? Q: Yeah. A: I don't know. Q: With you? A: Yes. Q: Your apartment in New York is not far from Bloomingdale's in New York. Is that right? A: Correct. Q: Where exactly is your place in New York City? A: It's on 3rd and 65th. Q: 3rd and 65th Street? A: Yes. Q: Where is the Bloomingdale's where you shopped and Nicole shopped and Paula shopped? A: It's on 59th, 60th, between Lexington and 3rd. Q: What clothing have you purchased at that Bloomingdale's in New York? A: Sweaters, suits -- no, I don't know if I ever bought a suit there. Overcoats. Probably slacks, shoes. That's all I can recall. Q: What items of clothing did Nicole purchase for you at Bloomingdale's? A: I have no idea. Q: You don't know? A: No. Q: And what about Paula? What did she purchase at that Bloomingdale's store for you? A: I don't know if she ever bought me anything from Bloomingdale's. Q: What kind of shoes did you purchase at Bloomingdale's in New York? A: Dress shoes, and at one point think I bought some winter boots. Q: Winter boots? A: Yeah. Q: What kind of boots? A: I don't know. Q: You don't know the name? A: No. Q: You're familiar with clothing manufacturers, aren't you? A: Yes. Q: You're a fashion-conscious person. Right? A Yes. Q: You're in the public eye. Right? That's part of your career. Right? A: Being m the public eye? Q: Yes. A: Yes. Q: You like to dress nicely. Right? A: Yes. Q: And you can't tell me the name of the company that made your winter boots? A: Exactly. Q: Were they a brand name? A: I don't know. Q: What about your dress shoes? A: What do you mean? Q: Were they brand-name shoes? A: I don't know. Q: What kind of dress shoes did you typically buy? A: Loafers. Q: Who made those loafers? A: I don't know. Q: You don't know? A: True. Q: You can't name a single company that made loafers that you owned? A: I've never walked into a shoe store in my life and asked for a pair of shoes by name, unless they were tennis shoes. Q: Well, I didn't ask that. A: Well -- Q: I didn't ask whether you asked for it by name. I asked whether you knew the name of any of the ] dress shoes that you have ever purchased. MR. BAKER: At the time he purchased them? Subsequently? MR. PETROCELLI: Any time, Mr. Baker. THE WITNESS: I believe I've worn some Ballys. I believe I've had shoes called Ferragamos. I believe I've had -- I don't know if they would have been called Stacy Adams. I don't know if wing tips are a brand name or not or a style. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: I am not limiting my question to loafers, by the way. Any kind of shoe. A: Other than that, I couldn't tell you. Reeboks, Nikes, Puma. I can't think of the name of the big golf company shoe right now. MR. BAKER: Foot-Joy. THE WITNESS: Foot-Joy. MR. PETROCELLI: One second. Q: Reeboks, Nikes, Puma. A: Foot-Joy. Q: Foot-Joy? A: Yeah. Q: Ballys, Ferragamo, Stacy Adams, wing tips. A: Yeah, I'm sure I've owned those type of shoes before. Q: Wing tips is a style of shoe -- A: That's what I don't know, if it's a brand name or a type of style. I don't know. Q: Can you think of any other brand names of shoes that you have worn? A: No Q: Are these the only brand-name shoes you have worn? A: I wouldn't know. Q: Have you worn shoes that you did not know the manufacturer of or the brand name? A: I would assume so. Q: The answer is you have? A: I don't know. I would assume so. Since I don't know the names of the shoes, they could have been those. They could have been some other name. Q: Including Bruno Maglis. Correct? A: That would be in there, yes. I wouldn't know. I've never looked at - - I've never seen a pair of Bruno Magli shoes in my closet, and I've never looked for them. Q: But Bruno Magli shoes would be in there. Correct? MR. BAKER: In where? THE WITNESS: I don't know. I've never -- the only pair of -- MR. PETROCELLI: That's what he said, Mr. Baker. MR. BAKER: But in where? Your question -- BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Bruno Magli shoes would be included in shoes that you have worn that you did not know the manufacturer of, the brand name. A: That's not correct at all. That's not correct at all. That's not what you asked either. That's not what you asked either. MR. PETROCELLI: Let me see the testimony, please. Let's not get excited. Q: "Question: I would" -- Let me go the one before. Let me ask you this. Let's go back -- MR. BAKER: Let's go back. Let's read these things. MR. PETROCELLI: I choose not to. MR. BAKER: I choose to. MR. PETROCELLI: It totally supports what said, but I choose not to. Would you like to have it read? MR. BAKER: Yes. I don't care what you think totally supports -- MR. PETROCELLI: Would you like me to read it, Mr. Baker? MR. BAKER: No. I would like David to read it. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay, David, you read it to Mr. Baker. (Record read from Page 1301, Line 21 through Page 1302, Line 9.) MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. MR. BAKER: I don't think it supports what you said, but that's in the eyes of the beholder. MR. PETROCELLI: I don't expect you to agree. Q: There are some shoes -- Withdrawn. There are shoes that you have worn -- Withdrawn. I want to limit my questions prior to Nicole's death. Okay? A: Uh-huh. Q: There are shoes that you wore prior to Nicole's death that you did not know the name of the manufacturer or the brand name. Correct? A: Yes, correct. Q: So you would not know whether such shoes that you did not know the name of were Bruno Maglis. Correct? A: Yes. Q: Has anyone purchased any shoes -- Did Nicole ever purchase shoes for you? A: No. Q: Did anyone ever purchase shoes for you? A: Yes. Q: Who? A: USC, the Buffalo Bills, and I can't think of anyone else. MR. BAKER: 49ers, Juice. THE WITNESS: 49ers. No. By then I was supplying my own shoes. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Shoes for personal use and home use, I mean -- A: No. Q: -- not athletic shoes. A: No Q: No one but you bought shoes for yourself. Is that what you're saying? A: Yes. Q: Was that true for five years before Nicole's death? A: Yes. Q: Did you ever buy shoes that you knew were Bruno Magli shoes? A: No. Q: How do you know that? A: Because I know, if Bruno Magli makes shoes that look like the shoes they had in court that's involved in this case, I would have never owned those ugly-ass shoes. Q: You thought those were ugly-ass shoes? A: Yes. Q: Why were they ugly-ass shoes? A: Because in my mind they were. Q: What about them was ugly, Mr. Simpson? A: The look of them, the style of them. Q: What about the style? A: I don't know. They were ugly to me. Aesthetically I felt they were ugly, and I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and to me they were ugly shoes. Q: Were they dress shoes? A: They didn't appear to be. Q: What did they appear to be? A: All-purpose casual shoes. Q: Did you own prior to June 12, 1994 all-purpose casual shoes? A: Yes. Q: Did you own any dark all-purpose casual shoes? A: I don't know. Q: You don't remember the all-purpose casual shoes that you owned as of June 12, 1994? A: Well, it's -- "all-purpose" is what throws me. Q: That was your word. I'm using your word. A: Yeah. I would say no, I didn't. Q: You didn't what? A: Wear the type of shoe -- the type of shoe I saw in court. The Bruno Magli shoe I saw in court seemed to be the type of shoe you could wear in anything but rain. To me that's what they looked to be. Q: Why couldn't you wear it in rain? A: They didn't look like they were waterproof to me. But they also looked like shoes you can wear on a normal day also. Q: And you have shoes like that. Right? A: No. I think the type of shoes that I wear like that, I wear for rain and cold. Q: What casual shoes did you own as of June 12, 1994? A: I consider all my loafers casual shoes. Q: Loafers? A: Yeah. Q: Did you own any shoes that were not loafers that were casual shoes of the type those Bruno Maglis were that you saw in court? A: No. Q: What I mean, "of the type," I don't mean that you couldn't wear them in rain or could wear them in rain, but just generally casual shoes, all-purpose casual shoes, excluding like fancy dress shoes.. A: No. Q: So all of your casual shoes that you owned as of June 12, 1994 were loafers. A: Yes. Q: Is that what you're saying? A: Yes. Q: You owned no tie shoes? A: I do have tie shoes, yes. Q: But they're all dress shoes? A: For me they're dress shoes. When I wear tie shoes, they're for dress. Q: How many pairs of shoes did you own as of June 1994? A: A lot. Q: How many? A: I don't know. Q: Give me your best approximation? A: 20 to 40. Q: Are you including the golf shoes? A: I guess you could throw those in there, yeah. Q: Would that increase the 20 to 40? A: I don't think so. Just all shoes, 20 to 40 pairs of shoes. Q: Let's exclude golf shoes. How many shoes did you own as of June 12, 1994? A: I have absolutely no idea. Q: Let's exclude Reeboks and Nike and other tennis shoes. By tennis shoes I mean shoes that you could play tennis or basketball with. A: I don't know. Q: How many shoes, excluding athletic shoes, did you own as of June 12, 1994? A: I don't know. Q: Give me your best approximation, Mr. Simpson. A: I can't. I can't. Q: 20 to 40? A: Possibly. Q: Now, of those 20 to 40 shoes, how many were loafers? A: I couldn't tell you. Q: What is your best approximation? A: I couldn't give you an approximation. I would say the majority of them. Q: Of the 20 to 40 shoes. how many were dress shoes? A: I would say -- I don't know. Q: Give me your best approximation? A: I can't. I can't. I can't do it. Q: Why not? A: Because I just can't recall. Q: Where were these shoes kept in your home? A: My closet. Q: The closet you've already described? A: Yeah. Now, you're talking about LA. Right? Q: Well did you have shoes in other locations? A: Yes. Q: Where? A: New York and Lagoon. Q: Have you ever bought shoes in Bloomingdale's in New York and taken them back to Los Angeles? A: Yes. Q: Including New York, Lagoon and Los Angeles, these shoes that you owned were roughly 20 to 40? A: I'm just guessing, yes. Q: And all the shoes in Los Angeles were kept in your closet. Right? A: Yes. Q: In your bedroom. A: Yes. Q: No shoes were in the garage or anywhere else. Is that right? A: They may have been. MR. BAKER: Excluding golf shoes again. MR. PETROCELLI: Excluding athletic shoes, golf shoes, yeah. THE WITNESS: They may have been, but I don't know. But the majority -- the shoes that I wear are in my closet. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Was there anything about the color of the Bruno Magli shoes that you saw in court that you said made them ugly? A: I don't know. They were a bluish green, I believe, but no -- maybe. I guess aesthetically it was the whole thing together, they were not really attractive shoes. Q: It wasn't the color necessarily. Right? A: No. Q: Was it the style of shoe? A: For the most part, yes. Q: And what about the style? A: Just aesthetically. I don't know. I looked at it. I didn't like it. I can look at a suit that's made by the same company and think it's ugly and look at another one and think it's gorgeous. To me, aesthetically I didn't like the shoe. Nothing specific. I didn't study it. I looked at it, and I didn't like the shoe. Q: Had you ever heard of Bruno Magli shoes as of June 12, 1994? A No Q: Did -- The name meant nothing to you? A : Nothing. Q: Is that correct? A: That's correct. Q: So if someone said "Bruno Magli" to you as of June 12, 1994, you would have no idea what that meant or what that referred to. Is that right? A: That's correct. Q: Now, you said the majority of your shoes were loafers. A: Yes. Q: And the others were all shoes that tied. Correct? A: For the most part, yes. Q: Describe those shoes to me. A: They look like regular tie-up shoes. Q: Name all the brand-name shoes that you owned or the manufacturers of all the 20 to 40 shoes that you owned. A: I don't know. Q: You can't do that? A: No. Q: There's too many? A: I don't know the names of the shoes. Q: You have no recollection? A: That's correct. Q: Can you positively... What size shoe does your son Jason wear? A: I don't know. Q: Does he ever wear your shoes? A: He did in the past, yes. Q: And did you ever wear his shoes? A: No. Q: Not once? A: Never. Q: When you said, "He did in the past," what do you mean by that, A: In the past a couple of times when he was a teenager, he used to steal my clothes from time to time. Q: In the five years before Nicole's death, did he wear your shoes? A: Not that I know of. Q: Did you ever buy any gloves at -- did you ever buy any gloves? A: I'm sure I did, yes. Q: You used gloves in the course of your work for television. Correct? A: Yes. Q: For example, in inclement weather at football games you might have to wear gloves when you're on the field interviewing athletes. Correct? A: Correct. Q: Or holding an umbrella. Correct? A: Correct. Q: What kind of gloves did you own for that purpose within the five years before Nicole's death? A: I don't know. Q: Can you describe them to me? A: Nice gloves, blue -- black gloves, brown gloves basically, and maybe once in a while some that's tan in there. Q: Did you buy those gloves yourself? A: I'm sure I have over the years, yes. Q: Did Nicole ever buy any for you? A: I don't ever recall her buying me gloves, no. Q: Did Nicole ever give you gloves for a gift? A: Not that I ever recall, no. Q: Did anyone ever give you gloves for a gift five years prior to Nicole's death? A: Not that I ever -- well, no, not that I ever recall, no. Q: Can you positively say that Nicole never bought you gloves as a gift? A: I don't recall her ever buying me gloves as a gift. Yes, I think I can say that, yes. Q: You think you can say positively that she never did? A: Yes. Q: Your size was extra large. Right? A: It depends. Q: Depends on what? A: Depends on the glove. Q: Some of the gloves were extra large sizes. Right? A: I would assume so. Q: You owned gloves as of June 12, 1994, that were extra large size. Correct? A: I'm sure, yes. Q: How many pairs of gloves did you own as of June 12, 1994? A: I don't know. Q: Give me your best estimate. A: I couldn't. Q: More than 50? A: No. Q: More than ]0? A: I don't know. Q: More than five? A: I don't know. Q: Why don't you know? A: Because I lose gloves, and people -- NBC would have to get me gloves from time to time because I would lose gloves, and I didn't know if they were in New York or in LA. or where they might have been, so I don't really know what gloves I had. Q: Let's talk about gloves at Rockingham. How many gloves did you own and have at Rockingham as of June 12, 1994? A: I don't know. Q: More than five? A: I have no idea. Q: Did you have so many that you can't remember? Is that what you're saying? A: I just don't know what glove -- what ski gloves I had, what gloves are there. I didn't go in my closet and look for gloves and count gloves. Q: You wouldn't use ski gloves for work. Right? A: At times I did, yes. Q: You did? A: Yes. Q: You mean -- MR. BAKER: Have you been to Buffalo, Dan? MR. PETROCELLI: Yes. Q: Where were all the gloves kept in your house at Rockingham that you owned as of June 12, 1994? A: That I know of? Q: Yeah. A: In my closet, in another closet outside of my main closet. You're talking about Rockingham. Q: Yes. A: My closet and my closet outside of my main closet. There's another closet that I keep mostly ski equipment. Q: Had you used the ski gloves for work within five years before Nicole's death? A: Those ski gloves? Q: Yes. A: Possibly. Q: The ones at your Rockingham house? A: Possibly. Q: Where is that closet? Is it outside your bedroom? A: No. It's in my bedroom, yes. Q: And the other closet is the big walk-in closet that apparently is cavernous. Right? A: Yes Q: And there is a place where gloves are filed -- not filed. I've been working too long. A place where gloves are maintained there? MR. BAKER: You mean in the big closet or the space next to the big closet? MR. PETROCELLI: The big closet. MR. BAKER: Okay. THE WITNESS: I think there's a drawer that they put my gloves in, yes. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Who is "they"? A Normally my housekeepers. Q: Where do they get the gloves from? A: If I brought them from New York -- when I get wet clothes, I bring back from New York, and they may have -- may not have been any gloves involved in that, they unpack for me and put them in various drawers and hang up various clothes. Q: Now, focusing on gloves, where would your housekeepers put your gloves? A: In a drawer. I can't recall if it's the top or second drawer in my bedroom. Q: Bedroom closet? A: Yes. Q: And then is there another area where they would put gloves or where gloves were kept? A: Yes. Q: Where is that? A: In a closet outside of my cavernous closet, as you described it. Q: Anyplace else? A: Not that I know of. Q: What were the names of the gloves or the manufacturers or brand names of the gloves that you owned as of June 12, 1994? A: I don't know. Q: Can't identify any? A: No. Q: Whatever they were, you just didn't know. Right? A: Correct. Q: Were any of them Aris light Isotoner gloves? A: I don't know. Q: You don't know one way or the other. Right? A: Exactly. Q: In other words, they could have been. A: They could have been, yes. MR. PETROCELLI: Let me mark some exhibits. I will mark what was trial Exhibit 606-E as Exhibit 54. I will mark as Exhibit 55 trial Exhibit 606-F. I will mark as Exhibit 56 trial Exhibit 1371. (Plaintiffs' Exhibits 56 through 58 were marked for identification by the reporter and are attached hereto.) BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: I have given you exhibits 54, 55 and 56. We have to take 56 out of the wrapper so you can see the gloves. Now, looking first at exhibits 54 and 55, do you see the gloves that you're wearing in those photographs? A: Yes. Q: And you saw these photographs in court. Right? A: Yes. Q: And those are brown leather gloves. Correct? A: They appear to be, yes. Q: The one in Exhibit 56 is black. Correct? A: Correct. Q: A pair of black leather gloves. Correct? A: Correct. Q: First of all, do you know the year in which the photos were taken here that's exhibits 54 and 55? A: No. Q: Can you give me your best estimate of the year in which you were conducting the interview that's depicted in those photos? A: '90. Q: 1990? A: Yes. Q: How do you know it's '90? A: Because Sam Wysch is in Cincinnati Bengal -- I don't know it's '90, I'm guessing it's '90. but he's in Cincinnati Bengal clothes. Q: So he would have had to be the coach of the Bengals. Correct? A: Yes. Q: Is that Boomer Esiason -- A: Yes. Q: -- next to him? Did I impress you, Mr. Baker? MR. BAKER: You did. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: And what about the Exhibit 56? MR. BAKER: But you've been doing that for four and a half days. THE WITNESS: I don't know. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: What year is that, Mr. Simpson? A: I have no idea. Q: Can you date it at all? A: After -- 1989 or after. Q: How do you know date that? A: Because I'm working for NBC. Q: When did you begin to work for him? A: 1989. Q: Do you know where the photo was taken, Mr. Simpson? A: No. Q: Can you tell by looking at the coat, the tie, anything like that? A: No. Q: Or the gloves? A: No. Q: Or the background, which you can't really see too well in this picture? A: Correct. Q: Now, focusing on exhibits 54 and 55, where you are wearing the brown leather gloves, do you know what the make of those gloves is? A: No. Q: Do you know if they're Aris Isotoner gloves? A: No. Q: Would you have recognized Aris Isotoner gloves? A: No. Q: Do you know where you got the gloves that are depicted in exhibits 54 and 55? A: No. Q: Do you know who gave them to you? A: No. Q: Do you know whether you bought them? A: I'm sure I must have, unless NBC did. Q: Why do you say you "must have"? A: Because I don't remember anybody else buying me gloves but NBC. Q: Did NBC buy them for you? A: Possibly. Q: Do you know? A: No. Q: Have you looked into that? A: No Q: Have you asked NBC if they did? A: No. Q: What is the basis on which you say NBC possibly might have given you those brown leather gloves? A: Because on a few occasions we were in cold weather and I had lost my gloves, and the producer of whatever the show was would get a runner or somebody to get me some gloves, and on a few occasions the guy who pulls the string, the electrician, would give me his gloves. Q: And would you give them back after you completed the -- your use of them? A: If the electrician gave me his, I believe I gave him his back. The other ones, if they bought them for me, I just kept them. Q: Looking at the gloves in exhibits 54 and 55, is it your testimony that those gloves were given to you by an electrician? A: No. Q: Do you know if they were? A: I would say no. I would say no. Q: Those were gloves that you knew that you owned yourself. Correct? A: Well I'm saying I know the electrician didn't get me these. Q: However you got those gloves, those were gloves that were yours and remained yours. Correct? A: I believe so, yes. Q: I am talking about the gloves in 54 and 55. A: I would think so, yes. Q: And the same thing for Exhibit 56. The black gloves you are wearing in Exhibit 56 were gloves that you owned. Correct? A: I would think so, yes. Q: And the black gloves in Exhibit 56 are not gloves you got from an electrician. Correct? A: I would believe they're not. Q: Okay. A: I don't think so. They were pretty beat up. Q: Now looking at the gloves in exhibits 54 and 55, the brown gloves -- A: Yes. Q: -- can you tell me where you got those gloves? A: No. Q: Can you tell me how you got those gloves? A: No. Q: Can you tell me in what city you obtained those gloves? A: No. Q: In what store? A: No. Q: Can you tell me how much they cost? A: No. Q: Can you tell me when you acquired them? A: No. Q: How you acquired them? A: No. Q: Can you tell me where they are now? A: No. Q: Are they in your closet? A: I haven't seen them no. Q: Have you checked? A: No. Q: Why not? A: Because I assume the police checked. Q: Did the police find them? A: I don't know. Q: As of June l 2, were those gloves in your closet? MR. BAKER: And you are talking about in Los Angeles. Correct? MR. PETROCELLI: Anywhere. THE WITNESS: I don't know. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Why don't you know? A: Because I wasn't looking for gloves on June 12. Q: So as of June 12, you were not looking for gloves on June 12? A: No. The weather here was very good. Q: As of June 12, 1994, do you know where the gloves that are depicted in exhibits 54 and 55 were located? A: No. Q: If they were located in Rockingham, they would be in the areas you previously described: On the second floor in or near your bedroom. Correct? A: I would imagine so, yes. Q: Do you know what size those gloves are in exhibits 54 and 55? A: No. Q: Did you own gloves like these depicted in exhibits 54 and 55 on or about June 12, 1994? A: I don't know. Q: Why don't you know? A: Because I wasn't looking for gloves. Q: But did you know whether or not as of June 12, 1994 you owned gloves like the ones in exhibits 54 and 55? A: No, I don't know. Q: Can you positively say that you did not own those gloves as of June 12, 1994? A: No. Q: Can you tell us where you got the gloves depicted in Exhibit 56? A: No. Q: Can you tell us how you got them> A: No. Q: When you got them? A: No. Q: Where you got them? A: No. Q: Can you tell us who gave them to you? A: No. MR. BAKER: Assuming somebody gave them to him. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Can you tell me, if you bought them, where you bought them? A: No. Q: How much you paid? A: No. Q: Can you tell me where they were located as of June 12, 1994? A: No. MR. BAKER: Assuming that he -- BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Can you tell me, if they were at Rockingham, would they be in the areas that you described at or near your bedroom? A: I would assume so. Q: Did you own gloves -- did you own those gloves depicted in Exhibit 56 as of June 12, 1994? A: I don't know. Q: Did you own gloves like the ones in Exhibit 56 as of June 12, 1994? A: I don't know. Q: Can you positively say you did not own the gloves depicted in Exhibit 56 as of June 12, 1994? A: No. Q: Did you own more than one pair of gloves as of June 12, 1994? A: You told me not to assume, so I can't assume. So I don't know how to answer that. Q: You don't know whether you owned more than one pair of gloves as of June 12, 1994? A: Well, you told me not to assume, so I can't -- I don't know how to -- Q: Do you believe you did? A: Yes. Q: And do you believe that you owned more than one pair of gloves as of June 12, 1994 like the ones depicted in Exhibit 54 and 55? A: Like them? Q: Yes. MR. BAKER: Brown leather gloves. THE WITNESS: Or black gloves. Yes. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: And like the black gloves depicted in 56? A: Yes. MR. PETROCELLI: Getting a lot of free legal advice here. MR. BAKER: And you were critical of me for passing notes yesterday. Come on. MR. KELLY: No one said it was free, Dan. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Mr. Simpson, do you know what sizes the gloves are in exhibit -- depicted in exhibits 54 and 55? A: No. Q: Extra large? A: I don't know. Q: That was your normal size, right, for gloves of the type depicted in Exhibit 54 and Exhibit 55? A: I can't say that. I can't answer that. Q: Why not? A: Because I don't know what the gloves were. Q: You liked tight-fitting gloves, didn't you? A: Not necessarily, no. Q: But for use in work you did. Right? A: Not necessarily. I liked warm gloves. Q: Warm gloves and gloves that fit snugly. Correct? A: You want them to fit, yes. Q: You don't want gloves for purposes of work, when you are holding a microphone and so forth, that are loose and you can't get sufficient dexterity. Correct? A: If they're not warm, I don't want to wear them. Q: But you are not going to wear big, loose gloves that are warm. Right? A: I have, yes. Q: But you normally didn't. Right? A: I wore warm gloves. Q: You wore warm gloves that fit snugly. Right? A: If they fit, they fit. If they don't fit, they don't fit. I don't know what "snugly" means. Q: Seems like I've heard that before. MR. BAKER: Then you must have quit. THE WITNESS: You must have quit, yes. MR. PETROCELLI: I have a different theory about that it. Anyway... Q: Those gloves that you see in exhibits 54 and 55 fit you. Correct? A: They appear to, yes. Q: And the glove in Exhibit 56 fit you. Correct? A: Better, it appears, yes. Q: What was the size in Exhibit 56? A: I don't know. Q: What's your best estimate? A: XL, XXL. Q: "XL" means extra large. Correct? A: Yes. "XXL" means XXL. Q: Double extra large. A: Yes. Q: What about the glove sizes in Exhibit 54? A: Be my same guess. Q: Extra large or double extra large? A: Yes. Q: Why double extra large? A: Because some gloves I have to wear double XL. Q: Which gloves? A: Golf gloves. Q: Golf gloves? A: Yes. Q: Let me show you as the next exhibit in order, 57, a picture of some gloves that are currently in the possession of LAPD SID, Scientific Investigation Division. Same thing with Exhibit 58. Same thing with Exhibit 59. These are all pictures of gloves at SID. Same thing with Exhibit 60. Exhibit 61, Exhibit 62, Exhibit 63 and Exhibit 64. (Plaintiffs' Exhibits 57 through 64 were marked for identification by the reporter and are attached hereto.) BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Mr. Simpson, I have shown you exhibits 57 through 64, which are copies of photographs in the possession of LAPD's SID taken from your residence at Rockingham. Do you recognize these gloves? A: From the pictures, yes. Q: They are gloves that you owned as of June 12, 1994. Correct? A: Well, I recognize them from seeing them in court. I would not have any independent recognition of these gloves if I hadn't seen them in court and it was purported that they were mine. Q: In other words, as of June 12, 1994, you owned these gloves, but you didn't have any particular recollection of them. Is that right? A: As of June 12th, I have no recollection of them. They showed them to me in court and said they were from my house and -- yeah. Q: Looking at the gloves, you don't have any reason to believe that they were not your gloves. Correct? A: Correct. Q: Okay. And do you see that the sizing of these gloves is extra large? A: Yes. MR. BAKER: "The sizing of these gloves," I see on one -- MR. PETROCELLI: Which one, Mr. Baker? On the back? MR. BAKER: I see it on 58, but I don't see it on anything else. I may have missed it. Okay, I think that shows the same glove, right. Yeah, it shows the same glove. at least it would so appear. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Where were these gloves maintained at your house on Rockingham? Do you know? A: No. If I had to guess -- no, you don't want me to guess. Q: Do you know where you got each of these pairs of gloves? A: No. Q: Do you know how you got them? A: No. Q:: Do you know the manufacturer of them? A: No. Q: Do you know when you got them? A: No. Q: Do you know whether you used any of these gloves for work? A: No. Q: Do you know how old each of these pairs of gloves are? A: No. Q: Are these all the gloves -- Well, withdrawn. MR. BAKER: Can we take a short break? MR. PETROCELLI: Yes. THE WITNESS: Can I correct something on the record also? MR. BAKER: Sure, go ahead. THE WITNESS: My son kept ski clothes at my house also, so there is a possibility that those which appear to be ski gloves could have possibly been a pair of his. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Can you look through the photographs and tell me which ones you're referring to, Mr. Simpson? A: The ones that look more like ski gloves. But these (Indicating) could be, too. I don't know. All of them. All of them. Q: I'm embarrassed to say that I don't know what ski gloves look like because I'm not a skier, but Mr. Baker is pointing to Exhibit -- A: I would say all of them. Q: Mr. Baker pointed to 62 and 65. Now, are you saying, Mr. Simpson, all of the gloves are ski gloves? A: Could be, yes. Yes. Q: So you are saying none of these gloves was yours? A: No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that there is a possibility that they could be my son's and there's -- obviously they could be mine . I don't know. Q: They could be yours. Right? A: Very well. Could be. They're in my house. Q: You don't know for a fact that they're your son's. Right? A: No. I just want to alert you that there is that possibility, but if they are in my closet, they should have been mine. Q: As Mr. Baker has reminded us, anything is possible. We can take a break now. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 10:55. (Recess.) (Plaintiffs' Exhibits 65 through 70 were marked for identification by the reporter and are attached hereto.) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately l 1:26. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Mr. Simpson, off the record I premarked exhibits 65 through 70. You have those photographs in front of you. They are pictures of what? A: This looks like what has been described as a watch cap, all blue or black, and this appears to be -- well, those. I don't know if you said both names. Q: It looks like two different watch caps here? A: Yes. Q: Exhibits 68, 69 and 70 are a blue watch cap? A: Yeah. Q: And 66 -- A: Blue or black, I guess. I can't tell from these photos. Q: 65, 66 and 67 appear to be like a black-and-white watch cap? A: Yeah, or blue and white, one of those. Q: These, I will represent to you, are pictures taken of watch caps at the LAPD's SID facility and apparently taken from your home. Do you own these two watch caps? A: I can't -- I don't know. Q: As of June 12, 1994, did you own the watch caps depicted in exhibits 65 through 70? A: Yeah, I don't know. Q: Did you own watch caps as of June 12, 1994? A: We get to that you don't want me to assume thing. We get to that. so I don't know. Q: Well, when you say "assume," do you believe you had hats of the sort or caps of the sort depicted in exhibits 65 through 70 as of June 12, 1994? A: I would imagine so. Q: And where would they have been kept at your house at Rockingham? A: In a ski closet. Q: And where is that ski closet? A: Outside of my main closet. Q: Is that where the ski gloves also would have been? A: Yes. Q: And do you wear hats or caps such as these depicted in exhibits 65 through 70 for skiing? A: When I skied, yes. Q: As of June of 1994, were you still skiing? A: No. Q: When did you stop skiing? A: I would -- I'm guessing the late '80s. Q: What use of watch caps -- of your watch caps did you make from the time you stopped skiing through June of 1994? A: When you say my watch caps, these aren't all my watch caps, I don't think. Q: These are not yours? A: That's a girl's watch cap there (Indicating). Q: How can you tell? A: The color. I believe it's Nicole's. Q: You recognize it as Nicole's? A: I know she had one like that, yes. Q: For the record, you are referring to exhibits 65,66 and 67. And with reference to 68, 69 and 70, what use did you make of that watch cap from the time you stopped skiing in the late '80s until June of 1994? A: I don't know if this is my watch cap, but I didn't make use of any watch cap in that period of time. Q: The watch caps like the one in Exhibit 69 -- 68 through 70 that you did have as of June of ]994, what use were you making? A: If I had a watch cap at this time, no use. Q: It was just in your closet or your ski drawer? MR. BAKER: Ski closet. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Ski closet. A: Yes, with all the other ski clothes that I was making no use of. Q: But you can't say positively you did not have the ski cap -- the watch cap identified in exhibits 68 through 70. Correct? A: Correct. Q: What size hat did you wear in June of 1994? A: I don't know. Q: What size watch cap did you wear? A: I don't know. Q: Do you have a general sense of what size your -- you wore for hats or caps in June of 1994? A: Large. Q: You have a large head? A: Yes. Q: Do you have a nickname as a result of having a large head? A: I had one. Q: What was it? A: Headquarters. Q: Excuse me? A: Headquarters. Q: Headquarters. When did you have that nickname? A: As a kid. Q: In terms of numbers, like size 10, size 8, size 9, what size hat do you wear? A: I don't know. Q: Do you have any estimation of that, Mr. Simpson? A: No. Q: Can you tell by looking at Exhibit 68 through 70 whether that's the size of hat that you wear? A: No. Q: Does size 8-1/2 seem right to you? A: No, I don't know. MR. BAKER: Is that a size? That's 8-1/2 inches. Is that how they do it? MR. PETROCELLI: I don't know. MR. BAKER: I don't either. MR. PETROCELLI: I don't think so, because it seems too small. MR. BAKER: It seems too logical. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did you own any dark sweat suits as of June of 1994? A: No. Q: None at all? A: No. Q: You're positive? A: Yes. Q: Why? A: Because I didn't wear sweat suits. Q: So you owned none at all? A: Correct. Q: What do you consider to be a sweat suit? A: Sweat suit, sweat pants, classic sweat pants, classic sweat shirt. Q: What clothing did you wear in June of 1994 for exercising? A: I wore tight -- what they call -- they look like bicycle pants. Q: Spandex? A: Spandex, yes. Spandex shorts. Q: What long pants, if any, did you wear for exercising? A: I didn't. Q: At no time? A: No. Q: Did you wear any exercise clothes on your exercise video that you made in May of 1994? A: I believe so. Q: What did you wear? A: Whatever they gave me. Q: What did they give you? A: I don't recall. Q: Was it long pants or short pants? A: I believe they were short pants. Q: Did you wear any long pants? A: I don't recall. Q: Whatever they gave you, did you keep? A: No. Q: You gave it back to them? A: Yes, I believe so. Q: To whom did you give it back? A: Whoever was in charge of wardrobe and stuff there. Q: As of June of 1994, did you own any athletic wear, dark in color, long pants? MR. BAKER: I don't know what you mean by "athletic wear." Anything like he said that he used? BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Anything you would work out with or participate in athletic events or sports, as opposed to slacks you would wear to go someplace. MR. BAKER: Excluding golf clothes, I assume. MR. PETROCELLI: I think we can exclude golf, because you wear kind of normal slacks for golf -- MR. BAKER: No. It's absolutely obligatory that you wear the ugliest pants ever made. He doesn't, but a lot of golfers do. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing. Did you understand -- Can you differentiate between golf pants and other athletic pants? A: Yes. Q: Okay. Well, put aside golf pants. Did you own any other dark athletic pants? A: Not that I'm aware of. Q: No long athletic wear type pants at all? A: Not that I'm aware. Q: When you say not that you're aware, you could have owned some pants but not be aware of it? A: Yes. Q: And how could that have happened? A: Just like all the ski clothes, I have no idea what's in that ski closet, but you guys pulled some caps and some gloves from there. I wouldn't have known because I haven't looked in that closet in years. Q: By the way, we didn't pull this. A: Well, whoever did. Q: This was taken from your home by the LAPD. A: Yes. MR. BAKER: By the way, can we get a stipulation that we can at least get his golf clubs back? MR. PETROCELLI: I guess we can talk about that. I don't know where they are. MR. BAKER: I do. MR. PETROCELLI: They're in evidence, I think. Right? They're not at the LAPD SID. I think they're a trial court exhibit. MR. BLASIER: I think they are. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Anyway, those are the Callaway golf clubs -- A: Yes. Q: -- in evidence? A: I guess so. I'd like to have them, though. Q: Let me ask you a question about those golf clubs. MR. BAKER: I'm sorry. MR. KELLY: Take a couple hours, Bob. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: When you last saw those golf clubs is when you packed them. Right? A: What do you mean? The clubs? Q: Yeah. A: Yes. Q: That was on the evening of June 12, 1994. Right? A: Yes. Q: When you put the golf clubs in the golf cover bag, that's the last time you saw those golf clubs. Right? A: The clubs, yes. Q: When that bag -- That bag was checked in at the airport to go onto the airplane. Right? A: Yes. Q: When you arrived in Chicago, you were picked up by a Hertz representative named Merrill. Correct? A: Correct. Q: And you knew Merrill from before. Right? A: No. Q: How did you know his name was Merrill when I just said it? A: Because he was in court. Q: So Merrill picked up your golf clubs and you and the rest of your luggage and put it all in his trunk. Right? A: Yes. Q: And what happened to -- He took you right to O'Hare Plaza? A: If that was the hotel, yes. Q: And then when you got out,what luggage came out with you? A: My grip, my Louis Vuitton bag and my suit. Q: And you left the golf clubs. Right? A: Yes. Q: And in the golf clubs was that blue-grayish bag that you had already consolidated. Right? A: I assume so, yes Q: Where did you understand the golf clubs were going? A: Well, they would have eventually been on my golf cart when we started to play golf. Q: What time was your tee time? A: I don't know. Q: Roughly. A: Noon. Q: Where? A: I don't know. Q: How were you going to find out where to go to play golf? A: He was going to pick me up and take me. Q: What time did you set for him to pick you up? A: 10:30 or 11:00. I'm not sure. Q: The next morning? A: Yes. Q: You were going to sleep for -- A: Well, that morning. Q: The morning of June 13. A: Yeah. I didn't get there till 6 something, to the hotel -- Q: 6 something Chicago time. Right? A: Yes. Q: And you were going to sleep for a while? A: Yes. Q: And then he was going to pick you up. A: Yes. Q: You were going to leave the rest of your luggage at the hotel and come back. Right? A: No. Q: You were going to take it all with you? A: Yes. Q: And then after golf you were going to an event that evening? A: Yes. Q: At the country club where the golf course is? A: I believe so, yes. Q: And then the plan was to, if you didn't find Mike Ditka, to come back to L.A. that evening. Right? A: Yeah, if I didn't get into another golf game, I would come back to L.A. that evening. Q: And you had a reservation. Correct? A: On the plane, yes. Q: What time that evening? A: I don't know. I don't recall. Q: What instructions did you give Merrill to do with respect to your golf clubs? A: None. Q: Did you understand that Merrill knew what to do? A: Yes. Q: How did you know that? A: Well, he's gonna pick me up the next day and we're going to the golf course. Q: I see. So you understood that when Merrill picked you up, the clubs would still be in his trunk. A: Yes. Q: Of the same car? A: Yes. Q: How did you know that would be the same person picking you up at the hotel? A: He told me. Q: He said, "Mr. Simpson. I'm gonna be the same person picking you up?" A: Yes. Q: If he told you some other person was going to pick you up, would you have then taken your clubs with you? A: More than likely, yes. Unless he was going to the golf course, he could have taken them there. Q: Where did you understand Merrill was headed during the time you were sleeping? A: Home. Q: Did you call Merrill the next morning to tell them -- to tell Merrill not to pick you up? A: No. Q: Did you have someone do so for you? A: No. Q: Do you know whether Merrill came to pick you up? A: I believe he was on his way. Q: On his way when? A: That morning. Q: When what? When you left the hotel? A: Yes. Q: Did you get any instructions to Merrill that you were leaving unexpectedly? A: Yes. Q: How did you get those instructions to him? A: I called him. Q: Where did you call him from? A: The hotel. Q: Before you checked out? A: Yes. Q: And so -- Where did you reach Merrill? A: I believe at his home. Q: How did you get his phone number? A: He left it with me. Q: And why did he do that? A: Because if something came up, I guess. Q: Like what? A: I don't know. Q: You told Merrill that if something came up, you would want to be able to get in touch with him? A: No. Q: And then you got his phone number. Right? A: No. Q: You didn't get his phone number? A: He gave me his phone number or it was in my travel file, one or the other. Q: Before this occasion had you ever seen Merrill before? A: No. Q: Had you ever had his number before? A: No. Q: So you got Merrill's phone number for the first time in the car. Right? A: It's standard, whoever I'm dealing with, they leave numbers for me, yes. Q: Home numbers? A: Whatever numbers, whoever I'm dealing with, yes. Q: What kind of car was it? A: Some type of truck. Q: You mean like a Bronco truck? A: Yeah. Q: Utility vehicle? A: Yes. Q: It wasn't a limousine, in other words, or a stretch or a sedan? A: Yes. Q: None of those. Right? A: None of those. Q: When you got to Chicago, you went down to pick up your luggage. Right? A: Yes. Q: At O'Hare. A: Yes. Q: And did you make any phone calls before you got to the luggage place? A: No. Q: Like any phone calls from the phone booth? A: No. Q: When you went there, did you go to where the luggage comes down? A: Yes. Q: And you waited for your luggage? A: Yes. Q: Anybody wait with you? A: He did. Q: Merrill was there? A: Yes. And a couple of people were hanging around. Q: Merrill meet you at the gate? A: Yes. Q: Give autographs? A: Yes. Q: How many? A: I don't know. Q: Before you got in the car, from the time you got off the plane, how many did you give? A: I don't know. Q: And can you identify anybody you spoke to? A: Yes. Q: Who? A: Howard Bingham. Q: After you got off the plane? A: I believe we spoke in the area, yes. Q: Baggage area? A: I believe so, yes. Q: Did you walk down to the area with him? A: The whole plane was walking down to the area, so I don't recall. Q: Who is Howard Bingham? A: A photographer. Q: A friend of yours? A: We're friendly, yes. Q: How long have you known Mr. Bingham? A: Years. I don't know. Forever, it seems. Q: Did he take pictures of you? A: I'm not sure. Q: Who is he a photographer for? A: Muhammad Ali. Q: Anyone else? A: That I know of, no. Q: And you chatted with him? A: I believe so, yes. Q: When the baggage -- Anybody else, by the way, that you can identify that you spoke to? A: No. Q: When the baggage came, did you pick it up off the carrousel? A: I might have or he might have. Q: "He" being? A: Merrill. And I can't recall if a baggage guy was there or not. I don't recall. Q: When the baggage got off, did you pick any of it up yourself? A: I don't recall. I'm sure I carried something, but I don't know which -- what. Q: Where was the car? A: Right out front. Q: Was anyone in it? A: No. Q: Just there parked? A: Yes. Q: What did you carry to the car? A: I don't recall. My grip for sure, and I don't know if I grabbed the Louis Vuitton bag or I just kept the suit and he grabbed it. I don't recall. Q: The two of you carried all the luggage? A: Yes. Q: No cart? A: Yes. Q: Did you do any luggage shifting or changing or consolidation? A: No. Q: When you got to the limousine, what went where? MR. BAKER: Limousine -- MR. PETROCELLI: I'm sorry. Q: When you got to the vehicle, what went where? A: I think everything went in the back. Q: Except your grip? A: I think everything went in the back. Q: You sat in the front seat? A: Yes. Q: Did you have your cell phone with you? A: I don't think so. Q: Did you make any phone calls? A: No. Q: Was there a phone in the car? A: I don't recall. Q: How long was the drive to the hotel? A: Not long. Q: When did you ask for the phone number? A What do you mean? MR. BAKER: He never asked for -- BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Merrill's. A: I never asked for the phone number. Q: When did you receive the phone number? A: If it wasn't already in my folder, he gave it to me. Q: How would it already have been in your folder? A: Cathy's very efficient, and normally all that information is in my folder and whatever letters he had previously written to Cathy. I think a copy of one of those letters was in the folder, too, my travel folder. Q: Where is that folder? A: I don't know. Q: Did the police take it? A: I don't think so. Q: Did you see it in court? A: No. Q: What did you do with it in Chicago? A: What do you mean? Q: Let me ask this: Did you come back with that folder? A: I'm sure it was there, yeah. Q: Where do you keep that folder when you're traveling? Or where did you keep it? A: In my grip. Q: In your grip? A: Yes. Q: What is it, like a book? A: No. Every trip I take, as you saw with the calendar, she will fax a calendar and whatever correspondence has to do with that event, put it in a manila envelope, staple my tickets there so I'll know what the heck I'm doing. Q: Did you have a phone book with you to give you names of people that you carried with you in your grip? A telephone book. A: My normal telephone book, yes. Q: You carried that with you? A: I always do, yes. Q: Had names of people that you would call from out of town? A: You mean names of my friends? Q: Yes. A: Yes. Q: And others. Correct? A: Yes. Q: Now, when you got in the car, what did you tell Merrill about -- Is that it, Mr. Baker? MR. BAKER: Yes. MR. PETROCELLI: That's the travel folder? MR. LEONARD: No. That is my travel folder, where I'm supposed to be today. Thank you very much. MR. PETROCELLI: I was hoping you could help us out there. Q: What did you and Merrill talk about on the way to the hotel? A: I don't recall. Q: But you made sure you had his home phone number. Right? A: No. Q: But you had it. Right? A: Yes. Q: Merrill told you he would pick you up the next day around -- later that day, around 10:30 or so. Right? A: Yes. Q: Did he tell you where he was going to take you? A: I assume to the golf course. Q: Did he tell you what would happen to the car, where the car would be during the intervening four hours? A: No. Q: Did you discuss with Merrill where he was going -- A: No. Q: -- after he dropped you off? A: No. Q: Did you know that he was going home? A: I assumed he was, yes. Q: Did you discuss that he was? A: He may have said he was gonna get some sleep. Q: What did Merrill do for a living? A: I gather he worked for Hertz. Q: Did you ask for his work number? A: No. Q: Did you have it? A: I'm sure it would have been in my folder, yes. Q: Did you know where Merrill was going to be during the intervening four hours? A: No. Q: When he picked you up, did he -- He did not pick you up because he -- you called him. Right? A: Yes. Q: And you reached him at his home? A: I believe so, yes. Q: What did you tell him? A: I told him I needed to get back to the airport and could he come get me. Q: What did he say? A: He was on his way. Q: And how long did it take for him to get there? A: I don't know. Q: Did he get there? A: No. Q: Why not? A: Because I saw some other Hertz people there when I was in the lobby, and they took me to the airport. Q: Did you make arrangements to tell Merrill or to get word to Merrill that you would be gone? As I understand what you're saying, you asked Merrill to come get you right away. Correct? A: Yes. Q: And before Merrill got there, you took another ride. Right? A: Yes. Q: So to your knowledge Merrill was going to arrive, and you would not be there. Right? A: I wasn't giving it that much thought at the time, but I assume so, yeah. Q: But your golf clubs would be with him. Right? A: Yes. Q: Did you make arrangements with anybody before you hopped in that ride to get your golf clubs back? A: No. Just told him I'm -- you know, "I need to get to the airport." Q: Who drove you? A: A Hertz person. Q: Just happened to see such a person out in the hotel area? A: They were arriving, I guess some clients with some Hertz people. Q: When you went down from your room to the lobby, you were going there to wait for Merrill? A: That or get a cab. Q: Whichever came first? A: Yes. Q: Were you able -- Did you ask for a cab? A: Yes. Q: Was there a line? A: They called for one. There was no cabs there. Q: Did you go to the front desk to check out? A: Yes. Q: And pay your bill? A: I don't think I paid the bill, no. Q: It was paid by Hertz? A: Yes. Q: So what did you do at the front desk? A: I asked them, could they call me a cab, and I asked for a bandage. Q: And who did you ask? A: Some lady that was there. Some lady that was there. Q: Was there anything on your finger at the time? A: Yes. Q: What? A: Toilet paper. Q: Anything else? A: Blood. Q: What did you do with the toilet paper? A: I guess threw it away. Q: What kind of Band-Aid did the person give you? A: A Band-Aid. Q: You put it on right there? A: Yes. Q: Right at the front desk? A: I don't recall. It was either at the front desk or away, because a lot of people were trying to check out. I may have walked over a little bit or I may have done it at the front desk. I don't remember. Q: Where did you throw the toilet paper? A: I don't know. Not on the ground -- not on the floor, I'm sure. Maybe there was a thing for, you know, cigarette smokers. Ashtray thing may have been there. Q: Who did you talk to at the front desk? A: Whoever was behind the desk. Q: Do you remember? A: No. Q: Man or woman? A: I believe it was a woman. Q: Caucasian? A: I don't recall. Q: Did she testify in court? A: I think she was -- I think she was in town to testify, but I don't know if she ever got on the stand. Q: Did you tell her you were hurry? A: Yeah. Q: Asked her for a cab? A: Yeah. Q: And she said none were available? A: No. She said she'll call for one. Q: And then you went outside? A: Yes. Q: And saw a Hertz person? A: Yeah. Q: And what did you tell that person? A: I needed to get to the airport. Q: What arrangements did you make to get your clubs back? A: At that time, none. Q: Did you have any further calls to Merrill the rest of that day? A: No. Q: What did you do to get your clubs back? A: What do you mean? Q: Did you ever get your clubs back? A: Yes. Q: When? A: Tuesday, I believe. Q: How did they come back to you? A: Evidently when he got to the hotel, we were already gone, and he came to the airport and got them checked on the flight. Q: The flight that you were on? A: I assume so, yes. Q: What's the basis for what you just said? A: He told me this the next day. Q: You talked to Merrill the next day, being Tuesday? A: Yes. Q: How did that come about? A: I was in my office speaking with someone else, and Cathy had called him or he called Cathy -- I don't know which one -- and Cathy told me he was on the phone. And I apologized to him for how rude I was. I felt I was pretty rude to him when I called him that morning. Q: What did you say to Merrill when you called that morning that was rude? A: I think -- that morning I don't think I was rude at all The next day I was rude. That morning I just said, "I need to get out of here, and I need to get out of here now," and I think I was very abrupt and I was rude. I was -- I was not nice. Q: You're talking about when you called him from the hotel to come get you right away? A: Yes. Q: Did you tell him that your wife had been killed? A: No. Q: Your ex-wife. I should say. A: No. Q: Gave him no explanation? A: No. The police said that they weren't talking and for me not to say anything. Q: Who told you that? A: Either Phillips or Lange or whichever one I spoke to that morning. Q: You don't know who it was? A: I spoke to a few guys that morning. Q: On the same call? A: No. Q: More than one person called you? A: No. I called home a few times. Q: And spoke to the police officers there? A: Yeah. Q: When you got on that airplane, you had no idea one way or the other whether your clubs were there? A: Didn't give it a thought. Q: Did you make any arrangements at all during the trip to the airport to get your clubs? A: No. Q: Tried calling anybody from your phone or anywhere else? A: For what? Q: To get your clubs. A: No. Q: You had all your other luggage with you. Right? A: Yes. Q: Did you check it at the stand, or did you take it on the plane? A: Took it on the plane. Q: Everything else? A: Yes. Q: Meaning the grip and the Louis Vuitton? A: Yes. Q: And the suit bag was in the Louis Vuitton? A: Yes. Q: Anything else? Was that it? A: That's it. Q: When you got off the plane, did you -- what did you do? A: Came to the curb. Q: And was anyone there to pick you up? A: Yes. Q: Who? A: Leroy Taft and Cathy Randa. Q: Where did they take you? A: To Rockingham. Q: When they picked you up, did you have any discussion about your golf clubs -- A: No. Q: -- and where they were? A: No. Q: Did you later find out that they were on the same flight with you? A Well, I assumed they were. Q: How? A: He said he got there before my plane left, and evidently the skycap had done it. I don't know. Maybe it came on a later flight. I'm not sure. Q: Well, when did you talk to Merrill next? A: Next day. Q: "Next day" being what, the 14th? A: Yes. Q: And you were at your office? A: Yes. Q: What time was it? A: I don't know. Q: In the morning? A: Possibly. Midday, morning. Q: And the purpose of your talking to Merrill was to apologize for being rude the day before? A: No. He was on the phone and I was in my office. I had just finished speaking to, for the first time, to Bob Shapiro, and I was in the office, and Cathy said he was on the phone. Q: And do you know why Merrill happened to be on your office phone? A: I don't know. Maybe Cathy called him or he called Cathy. I actually- - I left no explanation with these people, and maybe she was explaining to them and, you know... I don't know. Q: Now, by this time on the 14th, you did not know where your clubs were. Right? A: Correct. Q: And had you thought about getting them back? A: No. Q: You have no idea what time it was when this call with Merrill occurred? A: About midday. Morning or midday, one or the other. Q: Merrill then informed you that the clubs got on the plane? A: Yes. Q: Okay. And then you hung up with Merrill. Right? A: Yes. Q: What did you then do to get your clubs back? A: To get my clubs back? Q: Yeah. Did you ask someone to go get them for you? A: No. Q: What did you do? A: I don't get it. What did I do it at that point in time? Q: Did the clubs ever get back in your possession? A: Yes. Q: How? A: I picked them up. Q: When did you pick up your golf clubs? A: A little later. Q: Who went with you? A: Bob Kardashian. Q: Where did you leave from? A: My office. Q: Was Bob with you at the office, Bob Kardashian, that is? A: Yes. Q: Was he with you when you were talking to Merrill? A: I don't know. Q: When you left your office -- Back up. Did Merrill tell you where you could retrieve or where the clubs could be retrieved? A: No. Q: Did you make any phone calls to determine where the clubs were? A: No. Q: Did you have anybody else do so? A: No. Q: You just got in the car with Kardashian and went to LAX? A: I mean, we went to Nicole's house, but we -- too much press was there, and we started driving. We were waiting for my kids. Q: Let me go back. After you left your office, you went in whose car? A: Bob's. Q: What kind of car did he have? A: I don't recall. Q: No idea? A: No. Q: And you went directly from your office in Brentwood to Nicole's home on Bundy? A: Yes. Q: What was your purpose in doing that? A: I just wanted to go to her house. Q: Wanted to see what was going on there? A: No. Just wanted to go to her house. Q: What did you want to do in Nicole's house? A: I don't know. Q: How were you planning to enter the house? A: If somebody was there, I would have rung the doorbell in front. Q: And if no one was there? A: I would have left. Q: Did you call first? A: No Q: Did you get to the house? A: Got to the front of it, yes. Q: On Bundy? A: Actually we were on Dorothy. Q: Dorothy is around the corner? A: Yeah. It's at the corner of Bundy and Dorothy. Q: And what did you do there? A: There was a lot of media there, and Bob turned left and started down Bundy. Q: Past the condo? A: Yes. Q: And then what? A: He was just driving. We were talking. Q: Decided not to stop? A: Yes. Q: And then what did you decide to do then? A: I think we may have called to see how long it would take for the kids to get here, and we were -- Bob asked if I wanted to go straight to his house. I told him "No. Just drive." And -- Q: Just drive? A: Yeah. Q: Nowhere in particular? A: Yes. And then we were down Bundy at some area, and I said, "I think I have some bags at the airport" or "bag at the airport," and we went to the airport. Q: What bags did you think you had at the airport? A: Golf clubs. Q: How did you know it would still be there? A: I assumed it would be. Q: How did you know that Cathy Randa hadn't made arrangements to get it back? A: I just assumed it would be there. Q: Did you call Cathy first and say, "By the way, did you make arrangements to pick up my clubs so I don't have to go down there and get them?" A: No. Q: Did you ask someone else to get them? A: No. Q: Where were your children? A: En route from Lagoon to Bob's house. Q: Had they already left when you decided to go to the airport? A: I think they were about to leave. Q: You called down there? A: I believe so, yes. Q: From Bob's car phone? A: Or we called Bob's house and Bob said A.C had just called, one or the other. Q: Your children were with A.C. Cowlings? A: Yes. Q: And who else? A: I assume the Brown family. Q: What about Arnelle? A: I don't think so, but could have been, but I don't think so. Q: Who took your children to the Brown residence? A: A.C. Q: Did he go alone with the children? A: I was in Chicago, so I don't know. Q: Did you find out later that he took them down there alone? A: I'm not sure. Q: He took them down there the evening of -- I guess it would be the wee hours of the morning of the 13th? A: I don't know. Q: Do you know when the children got to the Brown residence? A: No. Q: And do you know whether anyone besides Cowlings was there with your children from Brentwood? In other words, did any of your other family members go down to be with the children? A: I don't know. MR. BAKER: When you say "down," do you mean down to Lagoon? MR. PETROCELLI: Yes. THE WITNESS: I don't know. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did you talk to Cowlings about getting the kids back to you? A: Pardon me? Q: Did you talk to Cowlings about getting the children back to you? A: I must have, yes. Q: This is now Tuesday morning. Correct? A: Yes. Q: Had you seen Al Cowlings yet? MR. BAKER: When you say, "This is now Tuesday morning," what are you MR. PETROCELLI: I want to make sure if the timing is right here. MR. BAKER: "But this is now Tuesday morning" relative to what? BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: When you're driving around with Kardashian. A: Did I what? Q: When you're driving around with Kardashian. A: What about it? Q: What day is this? A: Tuesday. Q: Tuesday, the 14th. Correct? A: Yes. Q: You got back into town on the 13th. Right? A: Yes. Q: Had you seen Cowlings yet? A: I don't recall. Q: Had you spoken to him? A: I feel I must have. Q: Did you call him from the hotel room? A: No. Q: From the airplane? A: I don't believe so. Q: Was he at your house on Monday night? A: I can't recall. Q: So Cowlings was going to take the children to Bob's house? A: Yes. Q: And they were going to be there in about an hour? A: Yes. Q: Why did you want to just drive around? A: Because I just -- that's what I do. Q: You drive around a lot? A: Yes. Q: No place in particular? A: Yes. Q: How long have you been doing that? A: My whole adult life. Q: Where do you like to drive around? A: It depends. Q: What are your -- what are some of your more favorite places you like to go? A: I don't think there is any favorite place. I just like to get on the freeway and move normally or drive around. That's what I've always done when I've been troubled. Q: So when you decided to go to LAX, you didn't know whether you were going to find your golf clubs there. Right? A: True. Q: And made no effort to find out. Right? A: True. Q: And when you got to the airport, what did you do? A: I think we went to where luggage -- lost luggage, and then we went -- I believe they said -- I don't know. We went to lost luggage, and then we went to wherever the luggage was. Q: Did you park the car? A: No. Just at the curb. Q: Did both of you go in? A: Yes. Q: Did you make arrangements to not get ticketed? A: I don't know how you can do that. Q: So you just left the car there. Right? A: Yes. Q: American Airlines? A: I believe so, yes. Q: Baggage pickup. Right? A: Yes. Q: Went inside and went where? A: I think to lost and found. Q: What did you tell them? A: That I was looking for a bag and I didn't have the ticket. Q: Who did you talk to? A: I don't recall. Q: Man or a woman? A: I don't recall. Q: Caucasian? African-American? A: I don't remember. Q: What did that person say? A: I don't know exactly. Obviously that the bag was -- to go to the other end or something. I don't -- I don't remember specifically what they said. Q: Now, did you describe the bag you were looking for? A: I must have. Q: What did you say? A: "I'm looking for a golf bag." Q: So that person sent you someplace else? A: Yes. Q: Where? A: To the other end of the baggage claim. Q: And what did you do there? A: Some -- I saw the bag, and a guy opened the cage and gave me the bag. Q: You just saw it through the cage? A: Yes. Q: How did you prove to him that it was your bag? A: He didn't ask for any proof. Q: Did he recognize you? A: I would assume so. Q: What did you say to him? A: I don't remember. Q: Do you know who that person is? A: No. Q: Can you identify that person? A: No. Q: Man or woman? A: I think that was a man. Q: The bag was in the blue cover bag. Right? A: I don't know if it was a blue cover bag -- Q: It was a cover bag. Right? A Yes Q: What did you do with the bag when you got it? A: Either Bob carried or I carried it and put it in the trunk of his car. Q: Did you look inside? A: No. Q: Did you open it? A: No. Q: Not once? A: No. Q: Did you open it to see if everything was in there? A: No. Q: Why not? A: Because I wasn't -- I'm a trusting person, I guess. Q: You didn't care to see if -- These were your favorite golf clubs. Right? A: Yes. Q: In fact, you want them back right now, don't you? A: Yes MR. BAKER: You don't have to answer that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Your lawyers asked for the clubs back. MR. BAKER: I want them back. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: These are your favorite golf clubs. Right? A: Yes. Q: And you didn't look inside? A: I've never gotten to an airport and looked to see if all my clubs were still in the bag ever in my life when I checked the golf clubs -- golf bag. Q: Is this the first time in your life you've gone to an airport the day after you came into town with your luggage to get your golf clubs? A: Pardon me? Q: Is this the first time you made a special trip to the airport to get your golf clubs? A: No. Q: When did that happen before? A: Many times before. Q: Many times when you would come back into town with your luggage and your golf clubs not be with you? A: Correct. Q: And you would go back and get them yourself? A: Correct. Q: Why does that happen so often? A: Because I play so early In the morning, and most of the times, not only in L.A. but even when I've been out of L.A., and I want my clubs because I'm gonna play the next morning, and they evidently came in on the next flight, and I don't want to wait because I want to play first thing the next morning. So I get up early or later on that night, would go get them because normally when they deliver, it's sometime the next day. Q: And you don't send a messenger? A: That has happened before, too, yes. I haven't sent a messenger, but they have delivered also. Q: Or you might have someone go pick them up for you. Right? A: No, I've never done that. Q: Never asked Cathy? A: Never. Q: Cathy's son works for you, too, doesn't he? A: Now, yes. Q: What's his name? A: Gary. Q: Gary Randa? A: Yes. Q: He was a member of your defense team? Worked as an investigator or runner? A: Yes. Q: Is he still? A: No. Q: Does he work for you? A: He has worked for me, yes. Q: Currently? A: I don't believe so. I'm not paying him. anyway. Q: So you went down and you got the clubs; didn't look inside. A: Correct. Q: And then drove where? . A: Maybe driven around a little more, but essentially we went to his house. Q: Where did you drive around? A: Between his house and the air- port. Q: Did anybody see you, by the way, when you were at Bundy? A: I don't know. Q: Did you slow down and -- A: Yes. Q: -- take a look? A: Yes. We were at the corner. We were actually on Dorothy at the corner. Q: Could you tell if anybody was home at Nicole's condo? A: No. Q: Did you talk to anybody there? A: No. Q: Were pictures taken of you there? A: I don't believe so. Q: Have you ever seen any video or photographs of you there with Kardashian? A: No. Q: When you got to the airport, got your clubs, got in the car, did you -- how long did it take you before you got back to Kardashian's house? A: I don't know. Q: Did you drive around a little more before you came back home to Bob's house? A: We did not rush straight to his house because I don't think we got on the freeway, but we went to his house. Q: He took a route home other than through the freeway? A: I believe so, yes. Q: He lives in Encino. Right? Or at that time did? A: Yes. Q: Where in Encino? A: Encino Hills. Q: Do you know what route he took back? A: Maybe Sepulveda. I'm not sure . I'm not sure. I was not looking at it. Q: Did you take the freeway down -- A: No. Q: -- to the airport? A: No. Q: Surface streets? A: Yes. Well, mostly Barrington. Q: Straight down? A: Yes. Most of the way, yes. Q: When you got to Bob Kardashian's house, what happened to your golf clubs? A: I assume they stayed in the golf club at that time. Q: Did the bag stay in Bob's trunk? A: At that time, yes. Q: When did you take them out? A: He may have taken them out. I did take a club out at one point in time. Q: When? A: Sometime in the next two or three days. Q: At Bob's house? A: Yeah. Q: To just swing? A: Yeah. Q: What club was it? A: I don't know. Q: When is the next time you saw your golf bag or your golf clubs after you put them in the trunk? A: In two or three days, sometime in those two or three days at Bob's house. Q: Do you know if Bob took them out and brought them in the house? A: No, because they were in his garage. Q: How do you know that? A: Because that's where I got the club out of the bag. Q: So to your knowledge someone took them out of Bob's trunk and put them in his garage. Right? A: Well, his car was in his garage also. Q: But the bag was out of the trunk, in the garage? A: Yes, standing in his garage. Q: You never went to the golf bag to look into it for any reason? A: To get a club out, yes. Q: When you went to get the club out, was the cover bag over the golf clubs? A: Yes. Q: So you had to unzip the cover bag? A: Yes. Q: And did you take the whole golf bag out of the cover bag? A: No. The cover bag just fell. Q: Just flipped over. Right? A: Yeah. Q: And you pulled out your club? A: Yeah. Q: Did you look around at all for anything? A: No. Q: Did you look at that other blue bag that was in there? A: No. Q: You swung your club in the garage there? A: No. I just kinda -- it was like a security thing that I had with me. Q: And then did you put it back in the golf bag? A: I'm not sure. Q: And how did the -- Did you take the golf bag with you when you left Kardashian's house? A: No. Q: Do you know what happened to it after you last saw it in the garage? A: No. Q: Do you know whether Bob Kardashian or anyone else looked in your golf bag? A: No. Q: Or your cover bag. A: No. Q: Did you have them check it for anything? A: No. Q: Do you know if they did? A: No. Q: Do you know if there was any blood anywhere on your golf bag? A: No. Q: On your golf clubs? A: No. Q: On the cover bag? A: No. Q: Did you check? A: Me? Q: Yeah. A: No. Q: Were there any knives in there? A: No. Q: How do you know? A: Because I didn't put any knives in, unless there were a penknife for my key chain. Q: Did you check? A: I didn't have to check. I know I never put any knives in there other than maybe a penknife on my key chain. Q: Did you ask anyone to check? A: No. Q: When you got to LAX on the morning of the 13th, you said Taft and Randa picked you up. Right? A: Yes. Q: What car was used to pick you up? A: I believe it was Skip's car. Q: What kind of car is that? A: I don't know. Q: When you got to Skip's car, you put the baggage where? A: I don't know if he put the Louis Vuitton in the trunk or not or in the back seat with Cathy. I just don't remember. Q: It was just the three of you? A: Yes. Q: And why did they pick you up? A: Because -- I don't know. Because Skip was my friend and Cathy was my friend, and evidently Arnelle was distraught the last time I spoke to her, and they were the closest people to me in LA. at that time. A.C., from what I understand, was taking my kids to Lagoon. Q: When they got to the airport and picked you up, did you look in your bags at all? A: No. Q: -- before they went into the trunk? A: No. Q: Did they? A: No. Q: Where did you go from the airport? A: To Rockingham. Q: Straight to Rockingham? A: Yes. Q: And did you have conversation in the car about Nicole's death? A: I'm sure we did. Q: Did you ask, you know, how it happened? A: I may have. Q: What did they say? A: No one knew. Q: Did they know anything? A: I don't think so. Q: Did they tell you anything at all about Nicole's death? A: I really don't recall. Q: Did they ask you whether you did it? A: I don't believe so. Q: There was no discussion about that? A: I don't believe so. Q: Did Cathy Randa ever ask you that question? A: I don't recall. Q: You don't recall. A. No. Q: Did Cathy Randa ever ask you if you were responsible for Nicole's death? A: I don't recall. Q: Wouldn't that be something you would recall, Mr. Simpson? MR. BAKER: That's argumentative. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Can you search your memory and tell me if she ever asked you that question? A: I don't recall. Q: Is that the best you can do? A: Yes. Q: Did you ever discuss with Cathy whether you were responsible for Nicole's death? A: I'm sure after I was arrested I was telling everybody, "Why are they doing this to me," yes. Q: Before you were arrested? A: I don't recall. Q: What about Skip Taft? A: What do you mean? MR. BAKER: Well, that's BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did you ever tell him -- Let me ask you this: Did he ever ask you if you were responsible for Nicole's death? MR. BAKER: You don't have to answer that. MR. PETROCELLI: Not every conversation he has with Skip Taft is privileged. MR. BAKER: You are going to have to prove it. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Okay. Let me ask you a question: Did you have conversations with Skip Taft as a friend, a loyal friend of yours for many, many years, when he picked you up at the airport, or were you involved in attorney- client communications on that ride home? MR. BAKER: Oh, so sinister, "attorney-client relations on ride home." Don't answer that question. MR. PETROCELLI: I have to have a foundation here, Mr. Baker. MR. BAKER: You are not going to get any answers out of him about what he talked to Skip Taft about. MR. PETROCELLI: Is there something about Skip Taft that he is immune from the subject of testimony? MR. BAKER: Well, I thought so in the criminal trial because he was an attorney, and he has a law -- MR. PETROCELLI: Let me lay a little foundation on this. Okay, Mr. Baker? MR. BAKER: Lay it quickly because I'm getting hungry. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Q: When you got in that car and drove home with Randa and Taft, were you involved in attorney-client communications- MR. BAKER: Well. that calls -- BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: -- with Skip Taft? MR. BAKER: That calls for a conclusion on the part of this witness. MR. PETROCELLI: It's the only way I can do it, Mr. Baker. MR. BAKER: No, I don't think you can do it at all, so- MR. PETROCELLI: How am I supposed to find out if it's privileged or if it's not privileged? They could have been talking about anything, even golf clubs. MR. BAKER: You can certainly ask him if he was talking about the Super bowl or the NBA finals. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Mr. Simpson, you know whether or not you were talking with Taft about legal matters, about lawyer-client matters, whether you were consulting him for advice or not, legal advice. You know. Is that true? MR. BAKER: Well, don't answer that. I mean, that's -- any time he talks to Mr. Taft about anything that has any legal Implications, it's attorney-client privilege. MR. PETROCELLI: He didn't say it had any legal implications. These were his trusted friends picking him up in time of great need and support. MR. BAKER: I understand that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Is that right, Mr. Simpson? Can you answer that? Is that right? A: I believe so, yes. Q: So tell us what you discussed. A: I don't know if we discussed anything. I think what they were trying to do is be there to comfort me. A: And did they ask you if you killed Nicole? A: I don't think they asked me any questions about killing Nicole, no. Q: Did they question you at all about A: No. Q: Did you tell them one way or the other that you did or didn't? A: I don't even think that was a subject matter, if I killed anyone at that time, so I don't believe that was a subject matter in anybody's mind a the time. Q: So the subject of your responsibility or not for Nicole's death never came up with Taft and Randa. Is that right? A: They were there to comfort me in that ride, yes. That's what they were there for. Q: And you had spoken to them quite a bit before you got in that car. Correct? A: Yes. Q: On the plane. A: Yes. Q: Lots of phone calls. Right? A: I don't know what a lot of phone calls is- Q: Numerous. A: -- or how many I got through on. Q: Numerous phone calls. Right? A: I know I tried to get through to them and to people during that period of time, yes. Q: And also from the hotel. Right? A: Yes. Yes. Q: And during all those phone calls with Taft and Randa from the moment you found out about -- the officers called you and told you about Nicole's death, did they ask you whether you had done it? A: I don't believe so. Q: Did you tell them? A: I never thought that that was a subject that anybody would ever discuss among us, no. It never entered my mind that -- that never entered my mind. Q: That subject ever come up during any of those conversations? A: At that time, no. Q: It came up later. Right? A: Obviously. Q: With Randa and Taft. Right? A: After I was arrested, yes. Q: But not before. A: I can't recall. Q: Not once. Is that what you're saying? A: I'm saying I can't recall. Q: Now, when you got to -- Where did you go, right from the airport to Rockingham on the 13th? A: Yes. Q: Make any phone calls? MR. BAKER: This is about the fourth time. MR. PETROCELLI: I am just trying to get back to -- Well, I better not continue because we are running out of tape and you're getting hungry, so we will take our break here. MR. KELLY: Which is more important? MR. BAKER: The tape. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No. 1 of Volume V. The time is approximately 12:17, and we are off the record. (At the hour of 12:17 p.m., a luncheon recess was taken, the deposition to resume at 1:17 p.m.) (At the hour of 1:29 p.m., the deposition of ORENTHAL JAMES Simpson was resumed at the same place, the same persons being present.) (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 71 was marked for identification by the reporter d is attached hereto.) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. The time is approximately 1:29. This is the beginning of tape No. 2 of Volume V. EXAMINATION (Resumed) BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: You see this photograph that we have marked as Exhibit 71? A: Yes. Q: You recognize that as the bath room at the O'Hare Plaza where you stayed on June 13 when you went there from L A. Right? A: Yeah. Q: Now, I just want you to tell us where on the vanity of this sink the glass was situated when you apparently hit it with the back of your hand. A: You mean the broken glass? Q: The glass that you said you broke. A: When it was broken. Q: No. Before it was broken, where was it situated? A: Okay. I thought -- I didn't know I testified that I hit it with the back of my hand before it was broke. Q: How did you break it? A: I don't know. Q: What I am trying to get to is where the glass was right before you came into contact with it that caused the glass to break. A: I don't know. But I can tell you, when it was broken, it was right here beneath the towel, right in this area it was broken (Indicating). Q: Take the reporter's exhibit, Mr.- MR. BAKER: Here you go. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: No, no. Take this one, Mr. Simpson, and why don't you mark where, I guess, the broken glass was. MR. BAKER: Just a red circle in the area. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Now, in that red circle was the broken glass? A: Yes. Q: Can you tell us where the glass was when you came into contact and broke it? A: It must have been in this area because when it broke, this is where the glass kinda went (Indicating). Q: The circled area? A: Yeah, basically, yeah. Q: And just a few minutes ago you said you didn't backhand it. A: I don't know how it broke . I really don't. I have no memory of how it broke. I just know I was in a frenzy, and it broke. Q: You do know that you broke it, though. Right? A: Yes. Q: Were you on the phone when you broke it? A: Somebody may have been holding on the phone. I was going back and forth to the phone. It was during a period of time when I was trying to get a flight, and in that period of time I was not put on hold, but people were looking for flight information and stuff, and I was just going back and forth from my-from the phone to my -- so I don't know when in that whole mix it happened, but it happened during that period of time. Q: Nor do you remember how it happened. Right? A: No. Q: You do know, for example, that you didn't like throw it at the mirror. Right? A: Yes. Q: Or throw it anywhere. A: Right. MR. BREWER: Mr. Baker, would you just describe for the record where Mr. Simpson drew a circle? MR. BAKER: It looks, Mike, to the right of the sink bowl, and it looks to the left of what appears to be kind of a wicker basket where there is, I assume, the complimentary toiletries that are obligatory now in every hotel. (Discussion held off the record.) MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah. Can you give me some copies of it? Let's mark this as Exhibit 72. (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 72 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.) BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Can you see without the glasses? A: Yeah. Q: I have marked as Exhibit 72 a copy of a phone bill for the day of June 13, 1994 at the O'Hare Plaza -- Howard Johnson O'Hare Plaza Hotel. That's where you stayed. Right? A: Yes. Q: By looking at these phone records, can you tell me who you called that morning in the hotel room? A: The first number at the top is Cathy Randa's. Q: Cathy was the first person you called. Correct? A: Yes. Q: Did you call Cathy before or after you heard from the officer? A: After. Q: The very first phone call that you had that morning was with the officer? A: Yes. Q: And you're sure of that now? A: Yes. I've always been sure of that. Q: Has that ever been questioned before? A: No. Q: Why are you sure of it? A: Because that was the call that woke me up. Q: You were sound asleep? A: Yes. Q: What did you set your alarm for? A: I didn't. Q: Did you have a wake-up call? A: I don't recall. Q: How were you planning to get up after a red-eye for 10 30 golf? A: I never have any problem waking up. Q: You don't recall if you set the alarm or anything like that? A: No. Actually, I was wrong. I did have a call before this call, before the police officer. Q: Who? A: The operator at the hotel. Q: What did she call about? A: See if my room was all right. Q: When you first got up there? A: Yes. Q: Before you went to sleep? A: Yes. Q: When you got to the room, you unpacked, you went into bed. Did you fall asleep pretty soon? A: Yes. Q: Did you have any Band-Aid or anything on your finger? A: No. Q: Did you bleed at all in the bed? A: No. Q: Drop any blood droplets on the sheets? A: No. Q: You're aware there are blood droplets found on those sheets. Right? A: Yes. Q: And you're aware they're in the middle of the sheets on the bottom sheet and the top sheet. Right? A: No. Q: You're not aware of that? A: No. Q: You're not aware of the fact that they were found generally in the middle where your hand might lie at night? A: No. Q: Where are they? A: Where are my hands? Q: No. Where was the blood found on the sheets? A: I don't know. Someone just said there was some blood in the bed. Q: No one ever told you the location of that blood? A: No. Q: Do you know how the blood got there? A: I assume in the morning when I was going back and forth and when I sat on the bed, you know. Q: Do you know for a fact that's how it got there? A: I would assume so, yes. Q: When you say "assume so," I don't know how you use the word "assume." What I want to know is if you remember actually dropping the blood on the sheets in the bed in Chicago. A: No. Q: And when you left that hotel that morning, did you know there was blood on the sheets in that bed? A: No. Q: The first time you learned about that was in the court case? A: Yes. Q: Okay. Tell me about the first call you got from -- after you woke up. A: The police called. Q: The first call that occurred that morning was one that you received? A: Yes. Q: And who was it? A: I guess it was the operator from the hotel or the girl at the desk. Q: That was right when you got in the room. Right? A: Yes. Q: But after you went to sleep, you got another call. Right? A: Yes. Q: And who was that? A: A police officer. Q: And tell me about their call. MR. BAKER: What do you mean, "tell me about it"? BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Tell me what you can recall from that call. A: They asked who I was. He -- I don't know if he prefaced it. He said my kids were all right. "First let me tell you your kids are all right." And I think he said he had bad news for me, or words to that effect, and he said "Your wife was murdered" -- may have said "killed" -- "last night" or "Your wife was killed." He may not have said "last night." But "Your wife was murdered" or "Your wife was killed"- "had been killed." And I got up, sat up, and I tried to make sense of it, and I asked him what -- you know, essentially what did he mean. I didn't get it. It was just hard to digest. And he started telling me that there was nothing he could tell me. "We're trying to find out," and he gave me a whole line of they didn't know any thing. "We're trying to find out, OJ." And he kept assuring me that my kids were okay, my kids were fine. I believe he said they were at the police station. And I might have asked him why. Q: Why they were at the police station? A: Yeah. Q: And what did he say? A: I don't remember at that -- what his answer to that was. And then he asked me about, could I come back to L.A., I believe, and essentially it was that. Q: What was the name of the person who called you? A: I don't -- in court they said it was Phillips, but at the time I wouldn't have known which one it was. Can you remember anything else said by either you or him in that conversation? A: I don't know if he asked me then or was it the next call, that did I -- what time I left LA. maybe or was I coming back or when I was coming back. I don't remember then. I was kinda -- I was not quite with it then. Q: Can you remember anything else that either you said or he said? A: Not right now, no. Q: Do you know of any document or anything else that would refresh your recollection about that conversation? A: No. Q: How did you leave it with the officer? That you were coming back, or what? A: He said something to me about the press didn't know. I think he said -- and I think I asked if the Browns knew and he said that they hadn't been told, or a conversation sorta like that, but they hadn't told anybody yet, and I -- you know, he may have given me a phone number. I think he gave me a phone number or two. And that's all I can recall. Q: Is that it? A: Yeah, that's what I can recall right now. Q: What did you do after that call? A: I started getting dressed. I may have called Cathy immediately to get me a flight out, first flight she can get out of Chicago, and I just -- I started getting dressed, and I started calling airlines myself, too. Q: You asked Cathy to find you a flight back? A: Yeah. Q: Did you tell her what you had just been told? A: No. Not at that time. I may have told her -- the next call, I may have told her. Q: Did she know anything about it when you had called her the first time? A: She didn't know there was a murder, no. I don't believe so. Q: Did she know anything had happened to- A: I think she thought something had happened. I think -- I don't recall, but I'm pretty sure she knew something had happened, but I don't recall. Q: You're saying that when you called Cathy Randa, you didn't tell her what the officer had just told you? A: No, I didn't. He told me not to say anything. He said, "The press doesn't know. We haven't told anybody," they hadn't told the Browns, and I didn't want to tell her immediately, no. Q: What did Randa say to you to lead you to believe that she knew? A: She asked what was going on, and I think they had just called her, someone had just called her, so she was -- you know, at that time of the morning, I guess she was concerned, for me to call her that early. Q: Who had just called her? A: I don't know at the time. Now I know it was the police, Arnelle and the police. Q: You know now that the police had gotten in touch with Randa before you and Randa spoke. Right? A: Now I do, yes. Q: And did the police or Arnelle first get in touch with Randa? A: I don't know. Q: You don't know which one? A: No. Q: But when you spoke to Randa in this first conversation, did she acknowledge that she heard about Nicole's death? A: No. Q: What did she say to you about what she had earlier heard about from the police? A: Nothing. I was in a rush. I just said, "Get me a number, Cathy. I can't talk to you. Get me the first flight out of here," and she was trying to ask me what was wrong, what was wrong, and I told her I couldn't tell her. I was -- I don't know. I may have been crying. Q: But she knew what was wrong. Right? A: I don't know. Q: And what -- you got off the phone, and then what did you do? A: I started trying to get dressed, and I started going back and forth to the phone. I started myself trying to see if I can get some numbers of airlines, I believe. Q: And did you? A: At some point I did, yes. Q: You had already told Randa to get the first flight out for you. Right? A: Yes. I said, "See if you can get a flight out for me right away." Q: But even though you told her that, you decided to do it yourself? A: Yeah, at the same time. I just wanted to get out of Chicago, and I'm glad I did because the flight she eventually got me was a lot -- was later than the one I ended up getting myself. Q: You had the numbers of the airlines? A: No. Q: How did you get them? A: Either from the operator -- I'm sure from the operator at the hotel or I called Information. Q: Is that the next call you made? A: I don't know what these other numbers are. Q: What airline did you go back on? A: I think American. Q: So you called a couple of airlines to get flights out. Right? A: I talked to a lot of people. It may have been some Hertz people I talked to. It may have been some airline people I talked to. I don't even know if they were travel agents. I was just on the phone, back and forth on the phone to -- I would get one person and say it was an emergency, and then they would -- maybe one of the airlines checked the other airlines. I don't recall. Q: When you made the calls to the airlines, did you succeed in getting an early flight? A: Yes. Q: And then did you call Cathy back? A: I don't think I had got the flight by the time I talked to Cathy again. Q: So you see- A: But I might have. Q: -- the fourth call on Exhibit 72 is Q: call back to Randa. Right? A: Yeah. Q: And what did you discuss in that call? A: Probably the flights. Q: Did you discuss what had happened in that call? A: I may have told her then, yes. Q: And did she ask you any questions? A: No. Q: Did she ask you about your activities the night before? A: No. Q: Can you recall anything else you discussed with Randa in that conversation? A: No. Q: And then what did you do next? A: I continued to try to get dressed, and I believe I continued to go back and forth to the telephone. Q: Who else did you call? A: Just trying to get flights basically, trying to find the Hertz guy to come and get me. Q: And you called him. Right? A: Yeah. Q: Is that the next number? A: I don't know. I don't recognize any of the other numbers. Q: The 708 number? A: I don't know. Q: Okay. But you did get in touch with him and told him to come, and that's when you said you were rude. Right? A: Yeah, that -- I think I talked to him more than once, so I knew I was rude whenever I spoke to him. Q: Why did you talk to him two times that morning? A: Because he wasn't there, and I was trying to get him to get there and trying to figure out how far he was away, those kind of things. Q: The first time you called Merrill of Here, he was not at his house? A: No, he was there. Q: Why did you call Merrill of Hertz again? A: To find out where he was, was he close. Q: You mean you called him at his house? A: I don't know. Q: When you called him the second time, did you reach him? A: I can't recall. I think I may have. Q: Okay. Who else did you call? A: I called Nicole's house, I believe. Q: Which number is that on here? A: xxx-xxxx. Q: Who answered? A: I believe I spoke to a police officer. Q: Who was that? A: I don't know. Q: Tell me what was said in that call. A: That may have been when they-when I was first asked what time I had left the night before and was I coming back to L.A.. soon. Q: What did you tell him in answer to the question? A: "I'm taking the first flight I can get back" and what time I left the night before. Q: Did they ask you any other questions? A: Not that I recall right now. Q: Do you remember the name of the officer? A: No. Q: Did you ask what had happened to Nicole? A: Everyone that I spoke to, I asked that, and they all kept saying they didn't know, they were investigating, and there was nothing they could tell me. Q: Can you remember anything else about that call? A: No. Q: Did you ever write any notes down of any of these calls? A: I may have wrote the number down, yes. Q: Where? A: Whatever piece of paper I had there in front of me. Q: The police department number? A: The number that they had given me. I thought they had given me a cell number or something. Q: The first time you talked? A: Yeah, I believe he gave me a cell number or something. Q: Have you ever made any notes or memos of these conversations that you had? A: No. Q: And you don't know of any such notes or memos. Right? A: No. Q: Now, did you also call the police department in West L.A.? A: I don't think so. Q: One of these numbers is to the West LA. Police Department. A: That would have been the number that they 1 had given me. Q: What was the purpose of that call? A: To find out more about what was going on. Q: And did you find anything out? A: No, Q: And, now, there is a third call here to Merrill of Hertz. His number, I will represent to you, is 708-xxx-xxxx. You see there are three entries? A: Uh-huh. Q: Three 708 numbers like that? A: Uh-huh. Q: Why did you call him the third time? A: To find out where he was. Q: When you called the second time, was he still at his house? A: I don't remember. Q: And when you called him the third time was he still at his house? A: I don't know if I got through to him, but I don't recall. Q: Why were you so anxious to get Merrill of Hertz when you could have gotten any ride downstairs? A: Well, I hadn't been downstairs yet and, as it turned out, there was no -- any ride downstairs waiting for me. Q: When you called the airlines to arrange transportation, did you call downstairs to the front desk to arrange a cab? A: I don't recall. Q: What's your best recollection, Mr. , Simpson? A: I don't recall. Q: Did you make any other phone calls? A: Well, here's another one to my home (Indicating). Q: One to your house? A: Well, this says here (Indicating). Q: Which one is that? A: XXX-XXXX. Q: And who did you speak to there? A: I believe a police officer, and I may have spoken to Arnelle at that time. Q: Who was the police officer you spoke to at your Rockingham house? A: I don't know. Q: What did he say to you? A: I don't recall. Q: Nothing? A: I don't remember. Q: And Arnelle? A: She was just upset basically. I was trying to calm her down at that point. Q: What did Arnelle say. if anything, about what had happened to her that evening? A: I don't think she did. Q: Nothing? A: I don't believe so. I don't recall. Did she have a boyfriend at that time? A: I don't believe so. She may have, but I don't believe so. Q: Did she ask you if you knew anything about Nicole's death? A: No. Q: Did you make any calls from your cell phone from the hotel? A: No. Q: Any- A: Maybe. Maybe from the lobby or downstairs while I was waiting. Q: When you went downstairs? A: Possibly, yes. Q: Now, you said something before that when you cut your finger or hand or whatever on the glass in the bathroom, that you were on hold? MR. BAKER: We are not going back through the cutting thing. You spent well over an hour- MR. PETROCELLI: I am not going to ask him about the cuts. I just want to ask him if he was on hold. Q: Were you on hold at that time? A: At some point in time an operator -- it may have happened more than once -- said, "Well, you got a minute? Let me check through it." And I said, "Sure. I'll be right back to the phone if I'm not here," and I was trying to pack and everything, yes. So when I say, "I was on hold," she was taking some time to do whatever she was doing, and I was trying to pack at the same time. Q: Immediately after you cut your hand, did you tell anyone on the phone that you had done so? A: I don't recall. I may have. Q: Who did you tell? A: As I just told you, I don't recall. I may have. Q: Do you think you may have told an operator- A: I may have. a: -- that you cut your hand? A: I may have. Q: Did you tell Cathy Randa? A: I don't believe so. Q: Did you tell Arnelle? A: No. Q: Now, when you got downstairs. you said you made some cell phone calls. Is that right? A: I said I may have, yes. Q: Did you call Cathy Randa back? A: I may have. Q: What did you tell her? A: I don't recall if I called her or not. Q: Did you call Louis Brown? A: I may have. Q: Did you reach him. A: No. Q: You called his home? A: Yes. Q: And there was no answer? A: There was an answer. Q: Who answered? A: Denise Brown. Q: What did she say? A: She started screaming. Q: Screaming at you? A: Yes. Q: What was she saying? A: I don't know. She was just yelling. Q: Was she saying, "You killed her"? A: I didn't hear that. Q: Was she saying words to the effect that you were responsible for Nicole's death? A: She might have. Q: What did you say to her A: She hung up. Q: Did you get a chance to say anything? A: No. Q: Now, was this phone call to Denise MR. BAKER: Phone call where Denise was. It wasn't to Denise. MR. PETROCELLI: Withdrawn. Q: Was this phone call to the Brown residence in which Denise answered the phone the first time that anyone had intimated to you that you were responsible for Nicole's death? A: Obviously, yes. If that's what she did. I mean, she was just screaming, and I just -- and then the phone went dead. Q: Did you call her right back? A: No. Q: Who did you call after Denise? A: I don't know. Q: What was the sense of what she was screaming about, Mr. Simpson? A: I don't know. She was just -- seemed totally out of it, seemed hysterical. Q: You couldn't tell what she was saying? A: No. Q: Did you try calling her back? A: No. Q: Why not? A: I was dealing with my own feelings. Q: What was your purpose in calling Lewis Brown? A: To talk to him. Q: Did you ask -- Did you call back to talk to him? A: No. Q: Okay. Had you spoken to your children by this time? A: No. Q: And did you know where they were? A: I believe they were -- I'm not sure at what time we're talking of. At one point I think I was aware that they were on their way to Lagoon. Q: Here, I'll have to mark this. I think it's already an exhibit, but I can't find it right now. Here we go, 613. From your cell phone you called XXX-XXXX. Do you see that? A: Yes. Q: Whose number is that? A: Cathy Randa. Q: And you called Cathy after Denise. Right? A: I don't know. Q: Tell me what you discussed with Cathy. A: I think the flight that I was trying to make or the flight that I made. Q: You told her that you had caught your flight. Right? A: I don't know. MR. BAKER: "Caught your flight"- BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: That you were -- you arranged your flight. Right? A: Well, I told her I had arranged it -- I'm sure in one of these calls I told her I had a flight. I just didn't know | if I would make the flight and-, because it was pretty tight. Q: And do you remember anything else you and she spoke about? A: No. Q: And then you called the 310-XXX-XXXX. Who is that? A: Skip Taft. You spoke to him? A: Yes. I believe so, yes. Q: Is that the first time you spoke to Taft that day? A: I don't know. Q: What was that conversation about? MR. BAKER: Don't answer that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Was that for the purpose of discussing legal matters? A: No. Q: Then tell me what you discussed. A: I told him what happened -- what I had known had happened. Q: And what did you say to Mr. Taft? A: That Nicole had been killed. Q: Did he know already? A: I don't recall. I don't think so. I'm not sure. Q: And what did he say? A: I don't know. He was upset. Q: Did you tell him that you were being blamed? A: No. Q: Did you tell him that Denise had accused you? A: No. Q: No discussion about your involvement? A: No. Q: Did he ask you? A: No. Q: Who did you call next? A: I don't know. Q: XXX-XXXX. Who is that? A: Skip's office. So maybe I didn't get him at home. Q: That's his other number? A: Yes. Q: And then we have XXX-XXXX. That's Taft again. Right? A: Yes. Q: And then you have XXX-XXXX, and who is that? A: I don't know. Q: Now, all these cell phone calls are made on the way to the airport? A: Possibly. I don't know. I could have been in front of the hotel also. Q: Waiting for the ride. Right? A: Waiting for a cab or Merrill. Q: Now, I will represent to you that XXX-XXXX is the phone number of Kato Kaelin. A: Okay. Q: Why did you call Kato Kaelin? A: To find out what was going on. Q: What was going on about what? A: What was going on about the murder of Nicole. Q: Why would you call Kato Kaelin about Nicole's murder? A: Because he was living at my house and there was a lot of police at my house, and I was trying to talk to anybody who might know anything that was going on. Q: How did you know there were police at your house? A: Because I had spoken to the police earlier. Q: Did they tell you why they were at your house? A: No. Q: Did you question, "What are you doing at my house?" A: No. I was hoping they were taking care of my family. Q: Is that what they told you? A: No. Q: When you spoke to the police in all of the conversations before the Kaelin conversation, did you ask them what they were doing at your house? A: No. Q: Did they tell you that they were searching for evidence or anything like that? A: No. Q: You thought they were there taking care of your children? A: I assumed so. Q: Is that what you thought? A: Yes. Q: But you called Kato Kaelin to find out if that was true? A: Just called Kato to find out what was going on. Q: Now, you believed that there was activity going on at your house in which the police were searching for evidence. Right? A: I didn't know what they were doing. No one said that to me at that time. Q: But you wanted to find out from Kaelin what the police were doing at your house. Correct? A: No. No. No. I just wanted to find out from Kato or talk to him about what was going on. Q: What was going on about what? A: Just everything. Q: This is a person you barely knew. A: That's not necessarily true. Q: Why would you call Kato Kaelin within an hour of finding out that your wife has been murdered? A: Because he was at my home. He had talked about some noises the night before. He was at my home. Q: When he talked about those noises, you were concerned that he might know something about the murder? A: What he might have found. I don't know. Q: So you made an association between the murder and those -- and the sounds that Kaelin heard? A: I may have. Q: Yes. And tell us what assoc ---tell us what he said to you about that association. A: Nothing. I never talked to him. I don't think he was there. Q: Did you ask him, "Kato, those sounds you heard, did you find anything?" MR. BAKER: He wasn't there. He never talked to him. THE WITNESS: I wasn't there. I never talked to him. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: You never got a chance to talk to him? A: No. MR. PETROCELLI: How did you know he wasn't there? MR. BAKER: He just said it. THE WITNESS: I just said it. MR. BAKER: You've got to listen. David's got it on his screen. MR. PETROCELLI: He did say. Q: Did you talk to him that day? A: That day. Q: Yeah. A: Yes. Q: Did you talk to him before you arrived in Los Angeles? A: No. Q: But you tried a couple of times. Right? A: I don't know. I don't know if that was the only time I tried or not. Q: You tried at least three or four times to call Kato Kaelin by the time you landed in Los Angeles, didn't you? A: I don't know. I don't know if that's true. I might have. Q: If the phone records indicate it's true, then it's true. Right? A: Yes. Q: The cell phone records and the Airfone records. Right? A: Yes. Q: And your purpose in calling Kaelin was to find out what he knew. Right? A: No. Just to find out what was going on. Q: And to talk about your story and his story. Right? A: No. Q: And to talk about what he had seen the night before. Right? A: No. Q: And to talk about what you and he had done the night before. Right? A: No. Q: You deny all those things? A: Yes. Q: You deny that that was your purpose or intention? A: Yes. Q: You had no such thought in mind. A: That's correct. Q: You just wanted to call and see how he was doing. Is that right? A: Not necessarily. MR. BAKER: Enough. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: "Not necessarily" A: No. Q: What did you want to call him for? A: As I said, to find out what was going on. Q: That was the first time you wanted to call him. Why did you want to call him two, three, four times? A: Because I never got him. Q: But you could ask other people A: Ask them what? Q: -- what was going on. A: I did. Q: Why were you so insistent on finding out from Kato Kaelin what was going on? MR. BAKER: Don't answer that. That's argumentative. MR. PETROCELLI: It's not argumentative. MR. BAKER: Of course, because he was "so insistent"? MR. PETROCELLI: Sure. MR. BAKER: That's your characterization. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: You had a desire to get in touch with Kato Kaelin. Correct? A: Correct. Q: And you wanted to find out what was going on. Right? A: Right. Q: From Kato Kaelin. Right? A: From anybody that can tell me. Q: From Kato Kaelin, too. Right? A: Yes. Q: Who else did you call besides Kato Kaelin? A: At my home? MR. BAKER: Other than what he- we've been testifying to for a half an hour, 45 minutes? BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: You called Leroy Taft, Cathy Randa. Correct? A: Yes. Q: And they are among your closest friends and advisors. Right? A: Yes. Q: And Kato Kaelin is not. Right? A: But Kato Kaelin is at my home, and since the police wouldn't tell me anything and Arnelle tried to tell me whatever she knew, which was nothing, maybe Kato knew something that was going on. Q: Did you try reaching Kaelin at various numbers? A: That morning, no. I wouldn't know any other number to try. Q: Did you talk to Taft or Randa about where Kaelin could be found? A: No. Q: Excuse me? A: No. Q: Did you ask Cathy or -- Randa, Arnelle or Taft, anyone else. to get in touch with Kaelin? A: No. Q: Or to help you get in touch with Kaelin? A: No. Q: Or where Kaelin could be found? A: No. Q: Or what Kaelin knew? A: No. Q: What made you associate the noises that Kaelin heard with Nicole's murder? A: I didn't really associate anything. I just -- when I left my house, Kato was concerned about some noises, and the next thing I heard about my life in L.A.. is that Nicole was murdered. So the police wouldn't tell me anything. Arnelle didn't know anything. Kato was at my home. Maybe he knew something. Q: So you thought the murderer might have gone to your home? A: Not necessarily, no. Q: But that was a possibility? A: I didn't know. Q: But that was a thought that entered your mind. A: Not really, no. Q: Then what was the -- why did you make that association? A: I didn't really make the association. MR. BAKER He didn't say- MR. PETROCELLI Mr. Baker- MR. BAKER: He said he did not associate those noises. Read it back. MR. PETROCELLI Excuse me, Mr. Baker. MR. BAKER: I want it read back. MR. PETROCELLI: Earlier in the testimony he said he made that association, and I am asking him why he did so. MR. BAKER: I don't agree with that. That isn't what he said. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Do you want to now say that you didn't make that association? MR. BAKER: Don't argue with him, because it's on the thing, and I wrote it down. He did not associate. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Nicole was killed at Bundy. Right? A Yes Q: And the noises were heard at Rockingham. Right? A: Yes. Q: But because you heard -- because Kaelin told you about noises at Rockingham, you wanted to find out from Kaelin what he knew about the murder of Nicole at Bundy. Is that right? A: No. Q: You deny that? A: Yes. Q: What caused you to even think that there was any connection, association or relationship between the thumps you heard at Rockingham- Excuse me. Withdrawn. MR. BAKER: He never heard any thumps. MR. PETROCELLI: Withdrawn. Q: What made you think there was any association, connection or relationship between the noises that Kaelin told you he had heard at Rockingham with your wife's murder at Bundy? A: Nothing. Q: You said a few moments ago that you did make such a connection in your mind. A: No, I didn't say that. I said that the last thing that I talked to about my home when I left was Kato. He was concerned. And the next thing I heard was Nicole was murdered. I had talked to Arnelle. She didn't know anything. The police wouldn't tell me anything. Kato was there. He was an adult. Arnelle was somewhat hysterical. So I just wanted to ask Kato what was going on. Q: And what was the connection in your mind between what concern Kato had expressed to you when you left the property at Rockingham and your wife's murder? A: None. MR. PETROCELLI: Can you read that, page 165, line 13. (Discussion held off the record.) MR. PETROCELLI: Let me read it on the real-time. Okay? Question: So you have made an association -- "Question" -- This was a few minutes ago, Mr. Simpson. "Why would you call Kato Kaelin within an hour of finding out that your wife has been murdered?" "Answer Because he was at my home. He had talked about something the night before. He was at my home. "Whether he talked about those noises that you were -- "Question: Whether he talked about those noises, you were concerned that he might" -- I can't read this real-time. It's in abbreviations, Mr. Baker. MR. BAKER: I didn't say a word, sir. Don't look accusatory at me. MR. PETROCELLI: Can you read it, Mr. Blasier? MR. BLASIER: I'm not in real-time. MR. PETROCELLI: Can we stop for a second? Let's go back to it, David. Okay? You can find it for me. (Record read from Page 1435, Page 9 through Page 1435, Line 20.) MR. PETROCELLI: We are back on record. Q: I now had the reporter read to you that you made an association- A: No. MR. BAKER: No. He said he may have. You say he did. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: I now have had the reporter read back to you your prior testimony where you said that you may have made an association between the noises that Kato told you about and Nicole's murder. Did you hear that testimony? A: Yes. Q: What was that association that you may have made? A: Wasn't an association. It was just -- it was noises he had said the night before. I knew he vas at the house. Arnelle was upset. The police wouldn't tell me anything. That's it. Q: But you said you may have made such an association. What did you mean by that? A: I meant that that morning -- MR. BAKER: You've answered that question. Don't answer it again MR. PETROCELLI: You are not going to let him answer? MR. BAKER: No. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: You wanted to talk to Kaelin to cover your tracks. Right? A: No. MR. BAKER: You've been thinking about this. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Who did you call after Kaelin? A: I don't know. Q: Who is Jonah Wilson? A: A friend of Arnelle's. Q: Why did you call him? A: I believe Arnelle went to his house. Q: How did you know that? A: I was told that. Q: By whom? A: Arnelle. Q: When? A: Whenever I talked to her previous to that. Q: Did you speak to Jonah Wilson that evening? A: I don't know. Q: On the plane? A: I don't know. Q: You don't remember? A: No. Q: When you called Jonah Wilson's number, the only person you spoke to was Arnelle? A: I don't know if I spoke to anyone. I just don't recall. Q: Phone records show 10 minutes' worth of calls to the number of Jonah Wilson. A: What do you mean, "worth of calls "? Q: Two calls totaling 10 minutes from the Airfone. A: Well, I must have talked to Arnelle then. Q: Not Jonah? A: If Jonah was taking care of her, I may have talked to Jonah a little bit, too. Q: Did Arnelle go with Mr. Cowlings with your children? A: I don't think so but, as I just told you before, I didn't know. Q: You think you might have spoken to Mr. Wilson? A: I may have. Q: Had you met him before? A: Yes. Q: How many occasions? A: Oh, I've known him since he was a kid. They grew up together. Q: Is he the son of Carl Wilson? A: Of the Beach Boys, Brian -- one of the Wilson guys, yes. Q: Yeah. And was he a boyfriend of Arnelle's? A: No. Q: Just a friend? A: Her best friend for 15 years now. Since they were kids. Q: Did you remember talking to Mr. Jonah Wilson? A: No. Q: Not at all? A: No. Q: Did you make a lot of phone calls from the airplane? A: I may have tried. MR. BAKER: I don't know what "a lot" is, but- BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Like 30? A: I may have tried. Q: What was your purpose in making all these phone calls from the airplane? A: Well, my purpose wasn't to make all those calls. It was just tough getting through because the plane kept -- airplane's phone kept cutting out. Q: The records show numerous calls to Cathy Randa and Leroy Taft. A: Yeah. Q: Why were you calling Leroy Taft and Cathy Randa so many times? MR. BAKER: Well, show him the phone records and see what "so many times" are rather than -- MR. PETROCELLI: Would you like to see them, Mr. Baker? MR. BAKER: Yeah. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. MR. BAKER: "Lot of calls" and "so many times," that's- MR. PETROCELLI: I am going to mark this as the next exhibit in order, which is 73. (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 73 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.) BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: You want to take a -- you can take a moment to look -- A: You have to show me. I can't read this. Q: You understand that when you make Airfone calls. they're billed to your credit card. Right? A: Yes. Q: And you made all the phone calls on your credit card. Right? A: I'm sure I did, yes. Q: And your credit card was [DELETED]. Correct? A: I don't know. Q: But you don't have any reason to doubt that. do you? A: No. Q: Now, I have here a chart that indicates the order of these phone calls. and the first one is to Kato Kaelin on the airplane. The last call you had made on your cellular was to Kato Kaelin, and the first call on the Airfone was to Kato Kaelin. A: Uh-huh. Q: So you were very interested in getting in touch with Mr. Kaelin. Right? MR. BAKER: Don't answer that. THE WITNESS: No, not really. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Not really? A: I didn't get through. If you don't get through, you try again. Q: First call on the airplane to Mr. Kaelin. MR. BAKER: You can characterize it any way you want. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: What was the purpose of the numerous calls on here, without having to go through each and every one of them, to Randa and Taft? A: To tell them my flight, but I couldn't get through, so I kept trying until I got through. Q: Once you got through and told them your flight, was there any further need to talk to them? A: I don't know about "need," but. you know, someone was just murdered, as far as I knew, and I was hurting. Maybe they were just trying to -- I think we might have prayed a little bit. We -- I don't know. Q: Who did you pray with? A: I believe Cathy. I think Skip a little bit. When I said "pray," we got a little religious with one another. Skip's a religious -- somewhat religious person. But, yes, I think it was just they were trying to do what a friend would do in these circumstances. Q: What do you mean, "somewhat religious"? A: He goes to church. Q: Is he a Christian? A: Yes. Q: And you're a Christian? A: Yes. Q: And Randa is? A: Yes. Q: Now, when you say you got religious together, what was the reason for that? A: I don't know. Someone was-died in our life. That's what tends to happen when that happens. Q: Was there any praying or religious -- expression of religious expression for you? A: To say strong, yes. I'm sure that was -- I think that's what they were trying to do, to soothe me, and in a sense I was trying to soothe Cathy, I know that, because she was pretty upset and distraught. So we were -- we were just trying to, you know, soothe each other, I guess, you know. Q: Was there any discussion in any of these phone calls with Randa or Taft about your involvement? A: No. Q: Not once? A: Not once. Q: Not a single question to you? A: No. Q: About whether you knew anything? A: No. Q: About whether you knew who might have killed Nicole? A: No. Q: About what your whereabouts were? A: No. Q: Whether you had an alibi? A: No. Q: They didn't ask you any of these things? A: No. Q: Never came up once? A: Never. Q: Was there any discussion in any of these conversations with Taft and Randa about what the cops knew? A: No. Q: What information that they were uncovering? A: No. Q: Now, after you had called Randa and Taft and Kato Kaelin all these times, had you spoken to your children? MR. BAKER: Let's- THE WITNESS: No. MR. BAKER: -- not put the pejorative "all these times" on it. MR. PETROCELLI: I don't want to go through them all, but there's numerous calls to them. MR. BAKER: The times indicated on Exhibit 73" is fine with me. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: You had not yet spoken to your children. Correct? A: I think they were en route to Lagoon at that time. Q: During the entire time you were on the airplane? A: I don't know about the entire time, but during the course of that time I did speak to one of my daughters: Arnelle. Q: But not to Justin or Sydney. A: No. Q: Weren't you concerned that your children had just lost their mother? A: Yes. Q: Didn't you want to speak to them above anything else? A: Once I got myself together, I certainly did, yes. Q: Didn't you put their welfare above yours? A: They were in good hands. A.C is the best. Q: But he's not their father, is he? A: No. And I couldn't have them in my arms because I was on an airplane, and I did not want to talk to them on a crowded airplane, and I wanted to get myself together before I spoke to them, yes. Q: So you made a choice not to speak to them until you were in person? A: Yes. Q: And did you stick to that choice? A: I don't know. I may have spoke to them that night once I was at my home. Q: On the telephone? A: I may have, yes. I'm not sure. Q: . When did you first speak to Nicole's parents? A: Sometime that day, maybe even on the airplane. but sometime that day. Q: And did you ever speak to Denise again? A: No. Q: Who did you speak to? A: I believe Judy. Q: And tell me about your conversation with Judy. A: It was just a matter of us, you know, trying to, you know, trying to comfort one another. Q: Did Judy ask you any questions about your whereabouts? A: No. Q: Was she accusatory at all? A: No. Q: Did she ask you if you knew anything about how Nicole had died? A: No. Q: Or who would kill Nicole? A: No. Q: When did you first find out that Nicole had been murdered? A: The morning of the police call. Q: They told you that it was a murder? A: Yeah. I believe his words were "murdered," but he may have said, "Nicole was killed," but I thought he said "murdered." Q: In thinking back, he may have said, "Nicole was killed." Is that what you're saying? A: Yeah. But I'm almost positive he said "murdered," but "killed," could have used that word, too. Q: If he did use that word "killed" rather than "murdered, " why did you believe she was murdered? A: He said "killed" or "murdered," and when I asked him what did he mean. his litany was, "We don't know. We're trying to find out." I'm sure if it was anything other than "murdered," he would have told me. It was a car accident -- if it was a car accident. But he was very insistent on telling me that they were investigating, they didn't know, that they were trying to find out, OJ. Q: So as far as you know, she could have been run over by a car. Right? A: I didn't feel that, no. Q: You didn't feel that way? A: No. Q: But he didn't tell you how she had been killed. Correct? A: No. That's correct. Q: There are several calls to the Simpson Enterprises cellular phone. What were those calls for, and to whom were they made? A: I'm sorry. I don't know what a-what do you mean, "Simpson Enterprises cellular phone"? Q: You made several phone calls from the airplane to a number in the name of Simpson Enterprises -- to a cell phone in the name of Simpson Enterprises. A: Uh-huh. Q: That's Cathy's cell phone? A: I would think so, yes. Q: And you called a number in the San Fernando Valley, 818-XXX-XXXX. Whose number is that? A: I don't know. Q: Five-minute phone call? I withdraw that. That call was made from your cellular phone to a San Fernando phone number, the 213-XXX-XXXX cellular phone. Would that have been Cathy's call? A: Yes. Q: Do you know whose number that is? A: No. Q: Did you tell Cathy or Leroy to call anybody for you? A: No . Yes. Q: Who? A: I told Leroy at one point to call maybe Howard Weitzman. Q: And why did you ask him to do that? A: Because a lawyer sitting next to me on the phone suggested that I should. Q: A lawyer sitting next to you on the phone? A: Yeah, while I was on the phone on the plane. Q: Oh, while you were on the airplane. A: Yeah. Q: What was that lawyer's name? A: I don't know. He was in court, though Q: And how did that lawyer know that you might need a lawyer? A: He -- the plane was sold out. The seats were tight. As I was talking on the phone, I guess he got the gist of what was going on, and I was crying some, and he was somewhat comforting, and we talked a little bit about it, and he made this suggestion to me. Q: Well, Mr. Simpson, what did you say to him that could have led him to suggest to you that you needed a lawyer? MR. BAKER: That's calling for speculation on the part of this witness. 1 BY MR. PETROCELLI Q: WHAT did you say to him? MR. BAKER: If he said anything. BY MR. PETROCELLI: This man said, "You should call a lawyer." Right? A: No . He said, "It may be a good idea if you have a lawyer." Q: Did you have a lawyer? A: A criminal lawyer, no. Q: What discussion that you and this man had led to a suggestion about a criminal lawyer? A: It was just talking. He heard me talking to Skip Taft about what was going on and that I -- Skip was asking me, I'm sure- Can I talk about what Skip and I talked about? MR. BAKER: If you weren't talking about the legal stuff, you can. THE WITNESS: No. Just about him picking me up, and he wanted to know where I wanted to go, and I said, "I need to go to my house because the police said that they'll be there and for me to" -- "they need to talk to me right when I land," and evidently he heard it. You'd have to ask the guy at this point. Evidently he heard that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Whose idea was Howard Weitzman? A: Skip or I. I guess. One of us. Q: Now, did you and this other man next to you, whose name I don't have in mind right now, discuss that you might be a target? A: No. Q: Or a suspect? A: No. Q: But yet he recommended that you might need a criminal lawyer? A: He didn't say "criminal lawyer" -- well, he may have. He said, "If you're gonna talk to the police. is your lawyer" -- I said, "My lawyer's a business lawyer." He said, "You might want to think about having another lawyer there," and that's when I called Skip and said what this guy had just said to me. Q: Did you speak to Weitzman from the phone from the airplane? A: I don't remember. Q: When was the first time you made contact with Weitzman? A: I don't recall. Q: Was it when you were on the ground in Los Angeles? A: May have been when I was at my house Q: Can you remember anything else you and this passenger discussed? A: No. Q: Now, you also have a phone call to Marcus Allen. A: Yes. Q: Did you reach him? A: No. Q: Did you talk to his wife? A: No. Q: Did you talk to anybody? A: I can't recall if someone was staying at his house at that time or not. Q: The phone records show a minute and 20 seconds to that number. Does that jog your memory at all? A: No. Q: What was your purpose in calling Marcus Allen? A: He was a friend. Q: One of your closest friends? A: Yes. Q: And you called Tawny Kiuen. Who was she? A: A friend of Cathy's and a former friend of mine -- and a friend of mine. Q: Former girlfriend of yours? A: Yes. Q: And why did you call Tawny? A: I was trying to get Cathy and I wasn't getting through, and I didn't know if Cathy had headed to her house or -- I think Cathy may have -- I'm not sure if Cathy had changed her cell phone or may have just changed her cell phone, but if Cathy called her, I wanted her to know I was looking for her. Q: That was the sole purpose of calling Tawny, was to get in touch with Cathy? A: Yes. Q: Is there anything else you can tell us about all of these phone calls to Cathy and Skip other than make arrangements to pick you up? A: The problem was getting through. That was the problem. Most of those phone calls didn't get through. Q: 29 of them got through. A: I disagree with that. Q: Maybe I misspoke. Let me look. How many do you think got through? A: I don't know. With Skip, maybe two or three. And maybe with Cathy. one or two. Q: The notations on Exhibit 73 say, "48 call attempts. 27 Billable calls(Calls completed). Do you believe you had 27 phone conversations? A: No, I didn't. Q: Much fewer than those? A: Yes. Q: One call to Leroy Taft is minutes-plus near the end of your flight. A: Yes. Q: Was that about the lawyer? A: I don't know. We may have just been commiserating or -- at that time. Q: What did you mean before when you said you wanted to get yourself together? A: I think I was emotionally somewhat shattered at that time, and I wanted to be strong for I my kids. Q: Is that the only thing you had in mind? A: Yes. Q: And that was the purpose of all these phone calls, was to get yourself together? MR. BAKER: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Don't answer that. THE WITNESS: I don't know the connection- MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me? MR. BAKER: Don't answer that. That's argumentative, contrary to what you've just been doing for two hours, hour and a half. MR. PETROCELLI: Don't exaggerate, Mr. Baker. MR. BAKER: I apologize. An hour and 24 minutes. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: When you got picked up at the airport, you've already told us Randa and Taft were there, and you went off. A: Yes. Q: Did you sign any autographs on the airplane? A: I may have. Q: Coming back to Los Angeles? A: I may have. Q: And did you sign any autographs going to -- from the hotel to the airport and onto the plane in Chicago? A: I may have. Q: AND from the part where you departed the plane and got into the car in Los Angeles? A: I don't know. Q: Now, when you got picked up by Taft and Randa. did you discuss the subject of Weitzman or some other criminal lawyer? A: The subject? Q: YEAH, whether such a person had been arranged. A: I may have. Q: And were you told that Weitzman had been retained? A: I believe so. I don't know about retained, but he'll be at my house when I got there. Q: Did you go directly to the house? A: Yes. Q: And when you got to the house, you got out of the car? A: Yes. Q: DID you take your luggage? A: My grip. Q: What about the bag in the trunk, the Louis Vuitton with the suit bag in it? A: I assumed that Skip or Cathy would grab it. I later found out that Cathy would grab it, and they wouldn't let her on the property. Q: And what did Cathy do with it? A: She stood there -- You re asking me secondhand knowledge now. Q: Yeah. A: She stood there, and at some point Bob Kardashian came and held it for her and tried to get on the property, and the police wouldn't let him. Q: What did Kardashian do with your suitcase? A: I gather took it and put it in his car. Q: And did he take it to his home? MR. BAKER: I don't know the sequence of this because he doesn't have any firsthand knowledge of this. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: You might have heard later on- MR. BAKER: So what? BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: -- from Bob, and I would like to know, based on any information you have, where that suitcase next went when Kardashian took it from Randa and put it in his car. A: He may have taken it to my office, and he may have taken it home. I don't know Q: When is the next time you saw the suitcase. Louis Vuitton suitcase? A: I don't -- I'm not sure. Maybe later that day or maybe the next day. I'm just not sure. Q: Did you ask anyone, "Hey, where's my suitcase?" A: No. Q: Later on that day when you were back at your Rockingham home-that evening, I guess. Right? A: Yes. Q: -- did ask you for your suitcase? A: No. Q: Ask to see it? A: No. Q: Did the police ask for it? A: No. Q: You don't know if it was at Kardashian's house or at the -- at your office. Is that what you're saying? A: Or if he brought it back to my house that evening. I just don't recall. Q: Do you remember the next time you saw it? A: No. Q: Do you remember unpacking it? A: No. Q: Since that suitcase was taken out of Kardashian's car, that Louis Vuitton case, did you ever see it again after that? A: In court. Q: That was the next time you saw it? A: That I'm aware of, yes. Q: And did you ever find out from any source what happened to your suitcase after Kardashian took it? A: No. Q: Did you ever ask? A: No. Q: Who was Louise Perry? A: I don't know. Q: That name means nothing to you? A: No. Q: Now, there are calls from your Rockingham residence later in the evening of the 13th to a number -- to the phone number of Ron Shipp, (805) XXX-XXXX. Did you make those calls? A: No. Q: Did Mr. Shipp make those calls from your house to his house? A: I would assume so. Q: Your calendar shows a luncheon with Mr. Shipp on the date of June 3, 1994. A: I don't believe so. Q: You don't believe it shows such a luncheon? A: No. Q: Exhibit A shows an entry for June 3. "Lunch Ron Shipp." A: Uh-huh. Q: Do you see that? A: Yeah. MR. BAKER: And Exhibit 8-A is both Cathy and- THE WITNESS: This is Cathy's. This is not 12 mine. The ones she gives me don't have all her things on it. MR. BAKER: Let's look at 8-B, because 8-B is the one he gets. MR. PETROCELLI: Wait a second. Before -- wait a second. Cathy wasn't going to Sydney's dance 17l recital at 5:00 p.m. Correct? A: No. But on her calendar she puts all of her events on also, as you can see. Q: In any event- MR. BAKER: Let's see 8-B and let's fund out if we have a luncheon with Ron Shipp, if you are going to pursue this line of inquiry. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: I want to ask you a question: Did you lunch with Ron Shipp- A: No. Q: -- on June 3rd? A: No. Q: Did Cathy? A: I don't know. Q: Did you ever find out Cathy did? A: No. It was about that time that I knew she was supposed to have a talk with him about showing up at my house. Q: So you think that's what that date was for? A: May have been. I don't know. Q: Making a note there about that? A: No. Q: What is your note? A: My note says -- I don't even know what it says. One says, "Who is Louise Perry?" The other one says, "God bless America." The other one says "Justice for all." One says "Skip Taft." MR. BAKER: You don't have to answer anything about your notes. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Well, Louise Perry is a name you are going to follow up on, Mr. Simpson? MR. BAKER: You are not entitled to ask him about notes he takes during Q: deposition. MR. PETROCELLI: During testimony? MR. BAKER: Yeah. He is entitled to take notes. MR. PETROCELLI: Well, yeah, but it might- MR. BAKER: He's entitled to have some confidentiality during the deposition. MR. PETROCELLI: It might have some relevance to the proceedings. MR. BAKER: It might. Give me the pen. Don't you give him that pen, David. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Now, Mr. Simpson, on the plane ride to Chicago, did you make any phone calls? A: No. Q: Did you sleep? A: I may have dozed, yes. Q: That was a red-eye. Right? A: Yes. Q: And it was dark. Right? A: Yes. Q: You were sitting in First Class? A: Yes. Q: Was there somebody right next to you? A: No. Q: And were you on the aisle or near the window? A: I probably sat in both seats. Q: Did you -- How long did you sleep? A: I told you I may have dozed. I'm not sure. Q: Did you read? A: Some, yes. Q: How long do you think you dozed? A: I don't know. Q: Do you sleep on airplanes? A: Sometimes. Q: Do you sleep on red-eyes? A: Sometimes. Q: Did you sleep more or less the same that you usually sleep on this particular flight? A: No, Q: You slept less? A: Normally my red-eyes are to New York. This was a much shorter flight. Q: So you slept less? A: If I dozed, yes. Q: You slept less because it was a shorter flight. Right? A: I don't know. Q: Were you agitated at all? A: No . Q: Upset about anything? A: No. Q: Were you Betting up to go to the bathroom? A: I did, yes. MR. BAKER: More than one? BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did you get up to go to the bathroom at all? A: Yes. Q: More than once? A: Yes. Q: How many times? A: A few times. Q: Three or four? A: Possibly. Q: Five or six? A: I doubt that, but possibly. Q: Possibly l0? A: I don't think so. Q: Under 10? A: Yes, I'm sure under l0. Q: Somewhere between 5 and 10? A: No, I'm not saying that. I said may have been three or four. May have been five. Q: How long was the flight? A: I don't know. Q: Did you drink a lot of water? A: Yes. Q: About how many glasses of water? A: A lot. Q: Five or six? A: At least. Q: Maybe 10? A: I don't think so. Q: You usually drink that much water? A: I have to, with my medication and on airplanes, yes. Q: What medication were you taking that night? A: Well, I was taking a whole lot of Motrin and stuff, and when I fly- when I'm on my 1 medication, I take a lot of water. You have to. The Sulfasalazine, I don't think I was on it at that time, but when I fly and I -- and I give this as advice often, you have to drink a lot of water if you're gonna fight jet lag, and I knew I -- I was still fighting jet lag from the previous week, so I was drinking a lot of water, yes. Q: And did you talk to any of the passengers on that flight? A: Yes. Q: Who? A: Howard Bingham and briefly to Craig Baumgartner's partner, whose name I can't think of right now. Q: Business partner? A: Yes. Q: He happened to be on the flight? A: Yes. Q: Were they both in First Class? A: No. Q: They both were in Coach? A: No. Q: Where were they? A: Bingham was in Coach. He was in First Class. Q: And they both came up to talk to you? A: Well, he was in First Class, so he didn't l have to come up to talk to me, but Bingham did. Q: What I meant was, was he seated right next to you where he could talk without getting out of his seat? A: It was a small First Class, and we spoke when we first got on the plane. Q: Did you get out of your seat at all to go speak to anybody? A: Once the plane was in flight? Q: Yes. A: I don't believe so. Q: What about before it was in flight? A: Yes. Q: Who? A: Bingham and this other guy. Q: And you went to each of their seats? A: No. I just stood up in the aisle and talked. Q: Just chitchat? A: Yes. Q: Did you talk to any of the flight attendants? A: Possibly. Q: Do you remember their names? A: No. Q: Did you talk to the pilot? A: Yes. Q: When? A: At some point during the flight. Q: He came back to talk to you? A: Yes. Q: And what did you and he talk about? A: I don't recall. Football maybe. Q: How long? A: I don't know. Q: Did you give any autographs on the airplane? A: Yes. Q: To whom? A: To the pilot for sure and maybe to one or two other people. I'm not sure. Q: That came up to you in the cabin? A: Yes. Possibly, yes. Q: Were you sweaty? A: I don't believe so. Q: Have others said you were sweaty? A: I don't know. Q: Were you agitated? A: No. Q: Where you edgy or jumpy from the medication? A: No. Q: When had you started taking that medication that makes you drink a lot of water? A: Originally? As I told you- Q: That day. A: -- I don't think I was taking it that day. I think I said that on the record here. I don't think I was taking it during that period of time, but I've been taking it for two or three years previous to this. Q: But -- So you were drinking a lot of water because you were flying. A: Yes. Q: I see. A: And I drink a lot of water anyway, but because I was flying, I drink even more. Q: Is that one of the reasons you went to the bathroom several times? A: I would imagine so. MR. BAKER: He is not a doctor, but I think that's- By MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Fair assumption? A: Yes. MR. BAKER: We've been going an hour and a half. MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah. MR. BAKER: Should we take a break? MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 2:41. (Recess.) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 3:20. (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 74 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.) MR. PETROCELLI: Mr. Baker, as you know, I served an Amended Notice of Deposition, which I've u1 attached as Exhibit 74, and no documents -- there is -- let me see how many there are here. Exhibit 74 contains 37 categories of documents, and none has been produced thus far. Are you producing anything? MR. BAKER: No. I think you've gotten our objections. I'm willing to sit down with you on Wednesday and go over all of these to tighten them up and to produce with you what we have. MR. PETROCELLI: And at the resumption of Mr. Simpson's deposition, then, they will be made available before then? MR. BAKER: Yeah. Whatever documents that you and I agree on. If we don't agree, we will go in and get judicial review of it, and they will be made before the next depo -- they will be made available to you before the next depo. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. That's Exhibit 74. MR. BAKER: And they are really not all documents. I mean, what ever they are. MR. PETROCELLI: Some of the items are things- MR. BAKER: Right, and I'm not arguing about that. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. We are not going to get into that now. Mr. Simpson. in April you went down to shoot a movie called FROGMAN. A: Yes. Q: Correct? A: Yes. Q: And you played a character called Bullfrog. Right? A: Yes. Q: A Navy SEAL character. Right? A: Yes. Q: You received some training to perform your part in that movie. Right? A: Incorrect. Q: No training at all? A: None. Q: Was there a person who worked with you to show you some of the moves? A: I don't know what you mean by "the moves." Q: Some of the physical actions that you would have to take as the character Bullfrog. A: On the set there was a stunt coordinator, yes. Q: And that stunt coordinator gave you some training on how to perform some of the actions that you had to take in the role as Bullfrog. Correct? A: No. Q: What did that stunt coordinator have to do with you? A: He would show us, if a punch had to be shown from the camera, where to punch so that it would look like a hit in the camera, stuff like that. Q: There were scenes in that movie when you would wield a knife. Correct? A: No. There was one scene. Q: Where you wielded a serrated dive knife. Correct? A: Correct. Q: Did anybody show you in connection with that particular scene how to perform the physical actions? A: How they wanted it to be done, yes. Q: And who did so? A: The director. Q: Did anyone else? A: No. Q: Did you receive any advice or training, whether on the set, off the set, from anybody in connection with your movements and actions in the role of Bullfrog? A: No. Q: Have you heard anyone say in court that you did so? A: No. Q: Have you ever spoken to a former military person or current military person about some of these actions, knives, knife scenes or anything like that, how to hold a knife, wield a knife? A: No. Q: Never in your life? A: Never. Q: Never had any kind of informal training on that at all? A: None. MR. PETROCELLI: I would like to mark as the next exhibit in order, Exhibit 75, excerpts from the script of FROGMAN. Q: That was the name of the project? A: Yes. (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 75 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.) BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: These were obtained again from the LAPD SID inspection that we had a while ago. Did the movie ever get released, by the way? A: No, I don't believe so. Q: Do you know why not? A: No. Q: Do you have a working copy of the film? A: No. Q: Have you ever seen it? A: No. Q: Did you ever see the dailies on this? A: Some days, yes. Q: Did you ever see any rough cut of the movie? A: No. Q: Now, I would like to refer you to pages 16 and 17, where it describes a scene where you enter the interior of a dive shop at night. Do you see that? A: Yes. Q: And you're Bullfrog. Right? A: Yes. Q: Near the bottom of the first page it says, "Bullfrog has entered the dive shop" -- quote, "Without a sound. Bullfrog has entered the dive shop." A: Where? Where is this at? Is it the last page or second to the last page. Q: Second to the last page. "Without a sound, Bullfrog has entered the dive show shop. Doesn't turn on the lights. Doesn't have to." Do you see that? A: Yes. Q: Next line: "Bullfrog comes up with a lethal, serrated dive knife.' A: Yes. Q: And then, "Bullfrog cases the area. All clear." A: Yes. Q: "Looking toward the back of the shop. Through the maze of counters and gear, he sees a shadow." A: Yes. Q: "Bullfrog's SEAL," capital letters S-E-A-L, "career. Bullfrog steals past. Silent. bullfrog's made a circle. He's behind the shadow. He lunges and, in one swift move, has the intruder on the floor, one arm twisted back in a punishing hold." Do you see that? A: Yes. Q: That character was a woman that you apprehended. Correct? A: Correct. That this is talking about, yes. Q: Correct. In this script?. Right? A: Yes. Q: And the knife that you were holding, was that a real knife? A: They may have given me a rubber knife when I grabbed her Q: But before they may have given you a rubber knife. you had a real knife? A: Yes. Q: In what hand were you holding that knife during the particular scene that I described? A: I believe the left hand. Q: Left hand? A: Yes. Q: Are you positive about that? A: Yes. I believe. I'm not totally positive, but the camera on this side (Indicating)- Q: Motioning to your left now. Right? A: Yeah. I believe the camera was on this side, so I think that's how we shot it. Q: And it was dark during this scene. Right? A: Well, yeah, the camera shot it dark, but you have to light it where it's not dark. Otherwise you wouldn't see it. Q: But it's supposed to depict the nighttime scene. Right? A: The key word is "supposed to depict." Yes? Q: It's a night scene. Right? A: We're indoors, but it's supposed to be a night scene, yes. Q: What were you wearing, Mr. Simpson, during this scene in FROGMAN? A: Whatever wardrobe they gave me. Q: What was it? A: I don't recall. Q: Dark outfit. Right? A: I'm not sure of that. Q: Gloves on. Right? A: No. Q: No gloves? A: No Q: Did you have anything on your head? A: I don't believe so, no. Q: And what kind of dark outfit did you have on? A: I told you I don't believe that -- I don't know if it was a dark outfit or not. Q: Can't remember the color? A: I thought it was a light-blue sweater, but I could be wrong there, but, you know, I was -- this guy just finished eating dinner somewhere, so I don't recall it being a dark outfit at all, no. Q: Who taught you how to hold the knife in the manner that you did? A: I don't know if anybody taught me. I think the director wanted me to hold it up. Q: And who taught you how to make the move by which you apprehended the shadowy figure? A: The director said, "Come up and grab her and pull her this way." Q: And is that what you did? A: Yes. Not the way it's written here, but that's what I did. Q: Did you ever see the footage of this scene? A: No. Q: Who was the director? A: This is embarrassing. Michael... You know, I apologize. I can't think of his name. Q: Do you know whether this script was based on generous part on a book? A: No. Q: Tom Clancy book? A: No. Q: Did you ever read the book WITHOUT REMORSE? A: No. Q: If -- In portraying the character of Bullfrog and in performing this particular scene- A: First, let's clear one thing up: Just 'cause it read this way, it doesn't mean this is the way the scene was shot, and it wasn't shot the way it reads. MR. BAKER: He didn't ask you about that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: How was it shot? A: In pieces. MR. BAKER: This is OJ. being OJ. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: It was shot in pieces." What does that mean? A: That means it wasn't shot like this. All these arms behind the back and that stuff never happened. Q: What happened? A: I just grabbed her and pulled her out of what they call the camera. Grabbed her from behind and pulled her out of the camera scene. Q: What part never happened? A: All this pulled down on the ground and pulling the hands behind the back. Q: Well, did someone else perform those movements? A: No. It just wasn't shot that way. The director had took his license and shot it his way. Q: He changed the movements when he decided to shoot the scene? A: Yes. Q: But you still came up -- You still entered the dive shop at night. Correct? A: Yes. Q: And you didn't turn on the lights. Right? A: k wasn't a dive shop, so there was no lights to turn on. It was- Q: It was supposed to be a dark scene. Correct? A: Yeah. MR. BAKER: Come on. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: And you still held a lethal serrated dive knife. Correct? A: Yes. Q: Okay. How long was that knife? A: I don't know. Q: More than 6 inches? MR. BAKER: You talking about the entire knife or the blade? MR. PETROCELLI: The blade. THE WITNESS: I don't know. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: About 6 inches? A: Could have been, but I don't know. Q: What did you do with that knife? A: It was theirs. It was the people that, you know, doing the movie. Q: Did you keep it as a souvenir? A: No. Q: Are you sure? A: Yes. Q: What about the clothing? Did you keep any of the clothing as a souvenir? A: I don't believe so, no. Q: Are you sure? A: Yes. Q: Have you ever met a Navy SEAL? A: Yes. Q: Within a year before June 12, 1994? A: Say that again. Q: Within one year before June 12, 1994, did you ever- A: Yes. Q: -- have any contact with a Navy SEAL? A: Yes. Q: Who? A: One guy was a guy who worked on the set, and one guy's wife worked at the hotel in Cabo that I was at. Q: And the guy that worked on the set who was a Navy SEAL, what was his job? A: I guess he was -- I believe he co-wrote the script, and he was there as a technical adviser. Q: And what is the name of that person? A: I don't know. I don't recall. I'm sorry. Q: When is the last time you spoke to that Navy SEAL? A: Sometime I believe during the movie. I don't think I talked to him since then. I may have, but I don't recall. Q: Did you ever have any discussions with the Navy SEAL about the script- A: I'm sure I did, yes. Q: -- as the movie was being shot? A: I'm sure I did. Q: Including the scene we just mentioned? A: I don't think we ever specifically talked about that scene, no. Q: But he was there at the time. Right? A: Yes. Q: And that script writer who was a Navy SEAL was there at the time you shot the scene that I just described. Right? A: I believe so . I don't recall, but I believe he was. Q: Thank you. The purpose of working -- Excuse me. MR. BAKER: Dan, he wants to stop at 4:30, too, John does, and I have no objection. MR. KELLY: I've got to make some decisions here, so if we can just go to 4:30, I'd appreciate it. MR. PETROCELLI: That's more than acceptable, Mr. Kelly. MR. KELLY: What are you being so nice about? MR. PETROCELLI: It's Friday. I'm not going to be in a deposition tomorrow. Q: Was the purpose of having -- of working with the Navy SEAL so that the actions that you would be performing would look more authentic? A: I don't know. I didn't make that decision. Q: Is that your understanding? A: I don't know. You have to ask the people who made the movie. Q: But you were attempting to portray the scene in an authentic manner. Correct? A: Yeah. I don't know what "authentic" is, but in relation to this, I was doing what the director told me to do. Q: Well, an actor is supposed to try to convince the viewers that he's doing the real thing. Right? A: I was doing what the director told me action-wise. Q: Were you trying to act to the best of your ability? A: Yes. Q: Okay. It would have been simpler if you just answered. Okay. Let me depart FROGMAN and go to another subject, if that's all right with you, Mr. Baker. MR. 8AKER: It is getting slaphappy here. Now you ask my permission. MR. PETROCELLI: I am going to mark as the next exhibit in order Exhibit 76 and Exhibit 77. Exhibit 76 is trial Exhibit 596, and Exhibit 77 is Trial Exhibit No. 126. (Plaintiffs' Exhibits 76 and 77 were marked for identification by the reporter and are attached hereto.) BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: While we are waiting for the original 12 pictures, let me ask you a question about the Chicago hotel. Did you take with you any plastic bags or laundry bags A: No. Q: Did you use any of them? A: No. Q: Did you see any of them? A: No. Q: Do you have any explanation why bags were missing from that hotel room? MR. BAKER: Don't answer that. You don't have to have explanations. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Dry-cleaning bags? Does that make a difference? Did you use any dry- cleaning bags? A: No. Q: Okay. Exhibit 76 and 77 are pictures. Can you identify what is depicted in those photographs? A: A portion of my bedroom. Q: And what about the other picture? A: Some socks on a rug. Q: Are those your socks? A: I don't know. Q: Do you have socks like that? A: I have black socks, yes. Q: That look like those socks? A: I don't know. I can't really see what these socks look like. Q: Well, you saw a lot of these socks in court. Right? A: No. Q: When you were in court, there was a lot of testimony about these socks. Right? A: Testimony, yes. Q: And video footage as well. Right? A: No. Q: Are those your socks? A: I don't know. Q: On June 12, 1994 did you have socks like those? A: I had black socks. but I can't tell how these socks are because they're balled up. Q: What kind of socks? Do you have -- a brand name that you- A: No. Q: Do you buy your own socks? Did you at the time, June of 1994? A: Yes. Q: What brand socks did you buy? A: I don't know. Q: Did you have any particular brands that you bought? A: No. Q: Would you be aware of the brand names of the socks that you owned in June of 1994? A: No. Q: Did you leave those socks on the floor when you left the room on June 12? A: No. Q: Are you sure? A: Yes. Q: How do you know? A: Because I never leave my socks on the floor in my bedroom. Q: Are you neat by habit? A: By habit, yes. Q: If you're in a hurry though, you might leave your socks on the floor. Right? A: Not in my bedroom. no Q: You didn't hang everything thing up in your bathroom. A: That's a little different. Q: And the towels. A: That's a little different Q: How is that different? A: It's a bathroom. Q: You never have left anything on your bedroom floor when you left the room? A: Anything? Anything. Q: Clothing? A: No Q: A belt? A: No. Q: Socks? A: No. Q: Never. A: Never. That I know of. Q: Did you wear black socks on June 12, 1994. A: I believe so. Q: Excuse me. You believe so. Correct? A: Yes. Q: You wore them to the recital. Right? A: I believe so. Q: Did you wear any other black socks that day? A: No. Q: One pair. A: Yes. Q: Do those look like the pair? A: I can't see what these look like. Q: Could they be the pair? A: I don't think so. Q: Why not? A: Because I didn't leave black socks here. Q: Apart from the fact that they're on the floor there, do they generally look like the black socks that you wore? A: I can't tell because I can't see what these look like. Q: Have you ever found the pair of black socks that you wore on June 12? MR. BAKER: That assumes they're missing. MR. PETROCELLI: Withdrawn. Q: Where are the pair of black socks that you wore on June 12? A: I assume in my home. Q: Have you looked for them? A: I've worn black socks since I've been home, yes. Q: Do you know if they were the exact pair that you took off that evening? A: No. Q: When you came home on the 13th, did you see those black socks that you had taken off the night before? A: I didn't look for them, no. Q: When you took the black socks off the night before or the day before or whenever you did, where did you put them? A: Either in my shoes or back in the sock drawer. Q: In what shoes? Q: The shoes I was wearing. Q: Because you might wear the socks again? A: Yes. Q: When you came back to your house on the 13th, did you look in those shoes? A: No. Q: Were the shoes there? A: I assume so. Q: Were the socks in the shoes? A: If that's where I left them, I would assume so. Q: But you don't know? A: No. Q: You took off your socks when you took off the clothes you wore to the recital? A: Yes. Q: And that's when you put on the golf clothing. A: Yes. Q: And you said you hung up the other clothing, the pants and the shirt. Correct? A: Yes, I did. Q: But you don't have a clear recollection whether you put the socks in the hamper or in the shoes. Is that right? MR. BAKER: He never said the "hamper." THE WITNESS: The shoes or in my drawer. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: The drawer. I'm sorry. A: Yes. Q: Why didn't you put them in the hamper? A: Because I didn't feel they were dirty. Q: How long had you worn those socks? A: Whatever time it took me to get to the recital and back. Q: Do you sweat? A: Yes. Q: Do you sweat in your feet? A: I'm sure sometimes. Q: You had worn the socks for two to three hours. Right? A: Yes. Q: You were going to wear them again without washing them? A: Yes. Q: Who does your laundry? A: My housekeeper. Q: Did you have a hamper? A: Yes. Q: Where was it located? A: My bathroom. Q: Did you put anything into that hamper on June 12th? A: I'm sure I did. Q: You took a shower in the morning, right, when you went to go to play golf? A: Yes, I believe so. Q: Did you put any of your towels in the hamper that day? A: I don't know. Q: Can you to the best of your memory, Mr. Simpson, describe to me the socks that you wore to the recital on June 12? A: They were black. That's all I can recall. Q: What kind of material were the socks made of? A: I don't know. Q: Were they thick socks or thin socks? Stretch socks? Can you describe them? A: I don't know. Q: You don't know? A: I don't recall. Q: What kind of shoes -- Black loafers. Right? A: Yes. Q: What kind of socks do you usually wear with those black loafers? A: Not real thick, but others if they're black, black socks. Q: Black socks, not thick. Correct? A: I would imagine not thick not in June. Q: Sheer? A: Could be. Q: How high? A: I don't know. Q: Torn? Were there any tears in the socks, any holes in them? A: I don't know. I don't think, I can't recall seeing any holes Q: Now, the socks that were introduced at trial, you were there when they were introduced. Right? A: I don't recall ever seeing them introduced at trial. Q: The actual socks that were taken by the police, you do not remember seeing them in court? A: I never saw them. Q: Did you examine them? A: Never. Q: You never said, "Let me see if these are mine"? A: No. Q: Did you examine the gloves to see if they were yours? A: Yeah, I looked at gloves. Q: Were they yours? A: I don't think so. Q: Not sure? A: I think they're too small to be mine. Q: But you're not sure. They could be yours. Correct? A: I didn't think so. Q: They could be. Correct? A: I don't think so. Q: Are you positive? A: I'm pretty positive. Q: Pretty, but not a hundred percent. Correct? A: I'm pretty positive they weren't mine. Q: But not a hundred percent. Correct? MR. BAKER: That's argumentative in view of the last four answers. MR. PETROCELLI: No, it's not. Q: Not a hundred percent. Correct? Don't tell him what to say, Mr. Leonard. MR. LEONARD: I'm not telling him what to say. He's answered the question. MR. PETROCELLI: No, he hasn't, Mr. Leonard, and you know he hasn't. MR. BAKER: Hundred percent positive. MR. PETROCELLI: He can answer that, Mr. Baker. MR. BAKER: Don't tell my client what he can answer, please. MR. PETROCELLI: But it's a clear question. Q: You are not a hundred percent positive. Correct? A: After I tried them on, I'm a hundred percent positive they weren't mine. Q: Before you tried them on, you were not a hundred percent positive. Correct? A: Correct. Q: And because you say they're too tight, that's what made you positive. Is that right? A: They're too small. period. Q: They didn't fit at all. Is that right? A: Not close. Q: Couldn't even get on your hands. Right? A: Not close. Q: Did you try them on without, what do you call them, latex gloves? A: No. MR. BAKER: It wasn't latex. MR. PETROCELLI: What was it, Mr. Baker? MR. BAKER: I can't tell you, but it's not latex. MR. PETROCELLI: Why can't you tell me? MR. BAKER: Because I can't remember. I'd be happy to. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: What was it? Do you know what those gloves were? A: No. Q: The kind of gloves that you might use to lean things or garden with or anything like that? A: Not me. Q: You ever wear those kind of gloves before? A: No. Q: So your answer is clear, without trying on -- without putting on latex or rubber gloves or plastic gloves beforehand. did you ever try those gloves on that were in court? A: No. Q: Is there any reason why one of the first things you didn't do when you saw those gloves was try them on? A: I'm sorry- Q: Why didn't you try the gloves on immediately when you first saw them to show everybody that they weren't yours? MR. BAKER: You mean when he was a criminal defendant? MR. PETROCELLI: When he first saw them in the courtroom. MR. BAKER: Because the guards were around him; he can't get up; he can't move? BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: DID you ask to try them on? A: No. Q: Okay. What about the watch cap or the hat? You remember that hat. Right? A: Yeah. Q: DID you examine that? A: Yeah. Q: Did you try it on? A: No. Q: Was it your hat? A: I don't think so, no. Q: Are you a hundred percent positive? A: No. Q: And why don't you think it's your hat? A: Because I saw that they took one from my house, and I don't ever recall having more than one. Q: How do you know they took one from your house? A: I saw it in the discovery. I think you showed it to me today. Q: The picture I showed you? A: Yes. Q: So you believe that you only owned one watch cap like that. Is that what you're saying? A: Yes. If I owned one, yes. Q: But you hadn't used any watch caps in a long time. Right? A: Yes. Q: So you're not a hundred percent sure how many watch caps you owned as of June 12. Correct? A: No, that's wrong. I only recall buying one my whole life. Q: Are you a hundred percent sure that you had one watch cap like the one that was in court in your home on June 12? A: That was mine, yes. That was in my home. Q: That was anybody's. A: That was mine, yes. Q: You keep saying, "That was mine." Did you have anybody else's watch cap in your house? A: I don't know. I don't know what Nicole might have put in my house. Q: Did you wear a watch cap on June 12,1994 at any time? A: No. Q: Now, why didn't you look at the socks? A: I don't know. I just never saw them in the courtroom. Q: Did you ask to look at them? A: No. Q: Mr. Simpson, where do you shop for socks? Or where did you? A: Everywhere. Q: Can you name some stores where you shopped for socks in June of 1994? A: No. Q: Excuse me while I'm looking for something. You knew -- Did you know the schedule of Nicole's housekeeper? A: No. Q: You knew she didn't work Sunday nights, though. Right? A: I didn't know if she was coming back Sunday nights or not. Q: She didn't sleep there Sundays. Right? A: I don't know. Q: What do you mean, you didn't know she was coming back? A: Most house keepers come back Sunday night. Q: You're saying you didn't know what her schedule was at all? A: That's correct. Q: Do you know why the ski cap found -- excuse me. Do you know why the watch cap found at Bundy had hair matching yours? MR. BLASIER: I believe that's incorrect. That mischaracterizes- THE WITNESS: Yes, I know that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Do you know why the watch cap had Bundy hair consistent with yours7 A: Some hairs consistent with mine. Q: Yeah. A: No, Q: Do you have any explanation for that? A: Maybe because I'm black. Q: Is that the only explanation you know of? A: Yes. Q: Just because you're a black person? MR. BAKER: Don't answer that. He doesn't have to have any explanation for that. MR. PETROCELLI: I didn't say he had to. I'm only asking him if he has any explanation. MR. BAKER: His explanation in terms of that evidence will come from his attorneys, as you are well aware. MR. PETROCELLI: It may not. He may have information that completely exonerates him. Q: Do you know why hair consistent with your hair was found on Ron Goldman's shirt? A: No. Q: Do you have any explanation for that? A: I'm no expert on similarities of hairs and shirts. Q: Excuse me? A: I'm no expert on similarities of hairs or shirts, so- Q: So the answer is you don't know why that is. Correct? A: Yes. Q: Do you know why that the glove found at Rockingham had hair consistent with Ron Goldman's hair? A: No. Q: Do you know why the glove at Rockingham had hair consistent with Nicole's hair? MR. KELLY: I'm sorry. The glove? BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Do you know why the glove at Rockingham had hair consistent with Nicole's hair? MR. BAKER: I am not sure there is any foundation for that question, and so I am going to instruct him not to answer. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: You are saying there was no hair matching Nicole's hair found on the Rockingham glove? A: I'm saying I am not aware that that was so, and if it was so, I would have no- Q: Explanation? A: I would have no knowledge of- I have no knowledge. I'm no expert on hair, but... Q: Do you know why the glove found at Rockingham had fibers matching Ron Goldman's shirt? A: I have no -- no, I don't have knowledge of any of this that you're saying. Q: Do you know why the glove found at Rockingham had fibers matching the carpet in your Bronco? A: I have no knowledge of any of this. Q: I have a few more to go through. Do you know why the glove at Rockingham had blood consistent with a mixture of yours, Ron Goldman's and Nicole's? A: I have no knowledge of this. Q: Do you know why the blood on the panel of the Bronco matched your blood? A: No. Q: Do you know why the blood on the console of the Bronco matched your blood? A: No. Q: Do you know why the blood on the panel of the Bronco was consistent with a mixture of Ron Goldman's and your blood? A: No. Q: Do you know why the blood on the console of the Bronco is consistent with a mixture of Ron Goldman's and Nicole's blood? A: No. Q: Do you know why the blood in the Bronco matched Nicole's blood? A: No. Q: Do you know why the blood found on the Rockingham driveway matched your blood? A: No. Q: Do you know why the blood in the foyer in your house matched your blood? A: No. Q: Do you know why the blood on the socks found in your bedroom matched your blood? A: No. Q: And do you know why the blood on the socks in your bedroom matched Nicole's blood? A: No. Q: Do you know why the blood at Bundy matched your blood? A: No. Q: Do you know why the shoes found at Bundy matched Bruno Magli shoes? A: No. Q: You have no knowledge about any of these things? A: Other than what I heard in court, no. Q: Did you have a rug in your foyer? A: I believe so, yes. Q: What color was the rug? A: It's a Persian rug. Q: Was it located on the foyer at a spot where blood was found? A: I don't believe so. Q: It was located away from the blood? A: I believe so. Q: Was the rug there when you came home? A: I don't recall. Q: Is the rug missing? A: No. It's there. Q: Do you have any explanation for how this evidence got where it was found? MR. BAKER: Don't answer that. He doesn't have to have an explanation. MR. PETROCELLI: You are not going to let him answer that? MR. BAKER: No. MR. PETROCELLI: You understand that I am not suggesting that he has to have one. I am just asking if he has one. MR. BAKER: Well, all I can tell you is -- I am obviously not going to tell you how to ask questions, but I am not going to let him answer that question. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Apart from anything you learned from your lawyers, do you have an explanation for how any of this evidence got where it was? MR. BAKER: I think you've gone through it all, and he doesn't have any knowledge about that, and we don't -- he will not be in our expert designation. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Before you ever spoke to a lawyer, after you left Los Angeles, did you have any knowledge or information as to how any of that evidence was found where it was? A: No. MR. BAKER: If in fact it was found where they say it was found. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Do you have any facts or information to suggest how that evidence got where it was found? A: Other than what I learned in court? Q: When you say "learned in court,' you mean what your lawyers argued in court? A: Yes. Q: Other than what you learned in court. A: No. Q: Have you ever found out what those noises were that Kato Kaelin heard? A: No. Q: Did you ever ask him? A: Ask him what. Q: What the noises were. A: He didn't know. Q: When did you ask him? A: When he was looking. He was saying, "I heard noises,' he thought it was an earthquake, and I may have asked him the next day when I got home . Q: When you got home, when did you first see Kaelin? A: That afternoon. Q: Where? A: At my house. Q: In the main residence? A: Yes. Q: How did he get there? A: I don't know. Q: Did you invite him in? A: He came in. Q: Uninvited? A: I think everybody was invited that day. Q: That's when you had your family there and a couple of your close friends. Right? A: People were coming and going. Q: Lots of people? A: Yes. Q: More than 20 or 30? A: I would imagine so, but I'm not sure. Q: And what did you talk to Kato about? You said you talked about the noises. Tell me about that conversation. MR. BAKER: He said he may have. THE WITNESS: I believe I asked him what was going on. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: What does that mean? A: No one had told me anything. I knew he had -- by this time had spent time with the police, and maybe he knew something. Q: What did he say? A: He didn't know anything. Q: Nothing? A: Nothing. Q: Did he tell you what the police asked him? A: No. Q: Did you ask him? A: No. Q: Did you ask him what happened during the evening after you left? A: I asked him, did he find anything. Q: What did he say? A: I believe he said no. I believe he said he didn't look. Q: After you left, he told you that -- A: I believe he said he didn't look. Q: He did not look. A: Yes. Q: Did you and he talk about anything else? A: No. Q: Was that the end of your conversation with Kaelin on the 13th? A: I believe so, yes. Q: Did you talk about the fact that the two of you were together the night before for part of the time? A: I don't believe so, but we might have. Q: When you say you "might have," do you have a recollection that you discussed having gone to McDonald's together? A: No. Q: You did not discuss that? A: I don't have a recollection of us discussing that. Q: Did you say to Kato, "You're my alibi. Right?" A: I don't believe so. Q: Was he your alibi? A: I didn't know I needed an alibi. Q: Did you say that to him? A: I don't believe so. Q: Did you discuss anything concerning your alibi with Kato Kaelin? A: I didn't believe I needed an alibi. MR. BAKER: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did you say to Kato, "You were with me. Right, Kato?" A: I don't think so. He was obviously with me when we went to get a burger, but I don't believe that we discussed that. Q: Did you say to Kaelin, "You saw me go in the house, didn't you, or words to that effect? A: I don't recall saying that, no. Q: Did you hear him testify to that? A: No. Q: Is Kaelin -- was Kaolin's testimony truthful? MR. BAKER: Don't answer that. BY MR. PETROCELLI Q: What you heard, and you were in a position to gauge, was it true? MR. BAKER: He is not going to testify in this trial whether he's truthful or untruthful. He is going to testify what he observed and what he witnessed and what he said. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: What Kaelin said about you, was that the truthful? MR. BAKER: Don't answer that. We are not -- he is not going to be interrogated about what he thinks somebody else said is truthful or untruthful. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did Kato say anything about you that to your knowledge was false? MR. BAKER: Again, the same objection -- MR. BREWER: I'm not asking for his assessment of his credibility. I am asking for particular information. MR. BAKER: Anyway, it seems like exactly the same thing to me. MR. PETROCELLI: Well, it's a little-it's a different question. Q: Did Kato Kaelin say anything on the stand, Mr. Simpson, that you knew to be false? MR. BAKER: Now, the -- he testified for days on the stand, and that is too broad. You can ask him questions, I suppose, about what Mr. Kaelin says, and if he believes it's true or false based upon his own empirical knowledge, I'll obviously allow that, but I am not going to allow you a broad blanket, anything in however many days he was on the stand. MR. PETROCELLI: You are not going to let him answer that question? MR. BAKER: No. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Q: Do you remember anything that Kato Kaelin said that right now stands out in your mind as false? MR. BAKER: If you have any recollection of what he testified to in all those days. THE WITNESS: I don't really have a clear recollection of all the things that he testified to and anything really specific, so I can't speak on anything just really specific, no. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: On the day of the 13th when Kaelin is at your house, did you and he go off into your kitchen? A: We may have. Q: And what did you and he discuss in your kitchen? A: I don't think we walked into the -- if we walked into the kitchen, it wasn't to discuss anything specific, I don't think. Q: But when you did get into the kitchen, what did you and he discuss? A: I don't recall. Q: You have no recollection? A: No. Q: And when Kaelin came into your house, were you glued to the TV set? MR. BAKER: When are we talking about? MR. PETROCELLI: On the 13th, Mr. Baker. THE WITNESS: I don't know what that means. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: In other words, were you watching television, three televisions? A: I was sitting with my mom and a bunch of people. The TVs were on. I don't know if I was dozing or watching at that time. Q: And what you were watching was coverage m about your wife's murder. Right? A: We were trying to find information when we were looking at TV, yes. Q: And at some point you asked Kaelin to go into the kitchen for a minute. Right? A: I don't recall that, no. Q: But the two of you went into the kitchen area. Correct? A: We may have. Q: THE two of you were alone. Correct? A: I don't recall that, no. Q: And he hopped up on the sink. Correct? A: I don't recall that, no. Q: You leaned against the sink. Right? A: I don't recall that, no. Q: And then you said to him, "You saw me go in the house," didn't you? A: I don't recall that. Q: "We went to McDonald's, and then you saw me go into the house." Right? A: I don't recall that. Q: Do you deny those conversations? A: I don't believe I had those conversations. I just don't recall having them. Q: Are you positive that those -- that that conversation did not occur? A: I don't recall talking to him in the kitchen about that, no. Q: But you're not sure. A: I don't recall doing it, no. Q: Are you sure? A: I'm sure I don't recall doing it. Q: If Kaelin says it happened, you wouldn't have any reason to doubt him. Correct? A: I don't know. Q: Why not? A: Because I don't recall doing it. Q: The day -- Withdrawn. On June 11 you spent some time watching television with Kato, didn't you? A: I don't know. He may have came in while I was watching TV. Q: And you were watching THE WORLD ACCORDING TO GARP. Right? A: I may have. Q: With Robin Williams. Right? A: I may have. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay, why don't you change it. MR. KELLY: We will stop at- MR. PETROCELLI: 4:30. Excuse me? MR. BAKER: Why don't we stop it? MR. KELLY: Yeah. MR. PETROCELLI: Stop what? MR. BAKER: The depo. MR. KELLY: The depo for the day. MR. PETROCELLI: Oh, I was going to ask a couple more questions about GARP. MR. BAKER: Save GARP. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. MR. KELLY: I've got- MR. PETROCELLI: I'll save GARP. MR. KELLY: I can't- MR. PETROCELLI: I am going to leave you in suspense about the GARP questions. Okay? MR. KELLY: That okay, Dan? MR. PETROCELLI: No, it's okay with me. Half hour doesn't- MR. BAKER: Michael. I know you don't agree with- THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the deposition of Orenthal James Simpson, Volume V. The number of videotapes used was two. We are going off the record, and the time is approximately 4:03. MR. PETROCELLI: On the stenographic record, I would like to say that we are not concluded with Mr. Simpson's deposition, and the lawyers are going to try to get together to agree on a date for the resumption of the deposition. MR. BAKER: Agreed. And would you join us here at 4:00 o'clock on Wednesday next, the 31st? MR. BREWER: No. MR. BAKER: You won't. MR. BREWER: The deposition is day to day. MR. BAKER: Well, as I suggested to you, and let's keep this on the record, Mr. Simpson is not going to be here, I'm not going to be here, Mr. Leonard's not going to be here, nor is Mr. Blasier going to be here, so you can take whatever solace you want in that. I'm willing to work out a new date, and I'm willing to do it on the 31st. MR. PETROCELLI: Just so the record is clear, I am prepared to continue and complete my examination on Monday. Tuesday of next week I think I would be finished. If everyone can get their schedules together, that's acceptable to me. MR. BREWER: And I've already indicated to Mr. Baker that I anticipate no more than a day of examination on my part, and I can't speak for Mr. Kelly. MR. KELLY: You would be ready to go on the 31st? MR. BREWER: Yes. MR. KELLY: You are not going to be here Monday and Tuesday. Is that what you're saying? MR. BAKER: That's what I just said, and Mr. Petrocelli already agreed that we could put it over and we would sit down and talk and do a schedule on the 4th -- or the 31st, rather, and that we would complete Mr. Simpson's deposition after we had -- you had the ability to view the videotape and you had the financial documents, and so I am trying to be reasonable. Mr. Brewer, you can be unreasonable and obviously tell the press anything you like. MR. BREWER: First of all, we don't need those comments on the record, Mr. Baker. MR. BAKER: Well, I wanted to put them on the record. MR. BREWER: And I would indicate that I've set aside and I believe all the other lawyers have set aside the appropriate time within which to complete the deposition. It was scheduled to go day to day until completed. You objected to the deposition going beyond five days. It seems to me that it's incumbent upon you to go into court to get an order to stop the deposition, and you haven't done that. And the fact is that I have other matters and other cases that I have to attend to, and it took us a month to get this deposition scheduled, so I'm concerned about those issues. Now, maybe you have time on your calendar. l personally don't. I have other matters I have to attend to, and I was hopeful to get the deposition completed by Wednesday of next week at the latest. I don't think that's an unreasonable request. MR. BAKER: As I said from November 15th on, five days, and I have commitments, and I've told Mr. Petrocelli I have commitments that I have to keep. So I think there's a reasonable way to work it out. If you don't want to attempt to do that, that's fine. I mean, we'll go into court and we'll do whatever is necessary, and we will go from there and -- MR. BREWER: We have stated our positions. MR. BAKER: You have indeed. MR. KELLY: My position is, I'm out here. I'm ready to continue Monday morning with the deposition. It's my understanding that this court order was day to day also. I'm not going to waste my client's money, my weekend, everything else, staying here if it's obviously not going to go Monday. I'm putting my objection on the record. What I do want to make clear. and I discussed this with you before, Mr. Baker, is that all the depositions that have been noticed for the Browns and Lou Brown and the like will be put off beyond any completion of this deposition if we are going to work in the spirit of cooperation, because I want to get this done first before we move on to that matter. Do you have any problem with that? MR. BAKER: Well, I have tried to cooperate with everybody relative to their documents and relative to everything else. MR. KELLY: Yeah. MR. BAKER: Now, if it's a one-way street, the answer is clearly no. If you guys want to go into court and fight it out, all the deposition notices that I have out will stay as the date they are, and we will then go and we will fight for every depo and every hour and every minute, and that's the way we'll do it. MR. KELLY: Right. I think I said just the opposite. If you indicate to me that you will give me your earlier indicated level of cooperation on my interrogatories and rescheduling the Brown depositions. I will work with you on completing this deposition also. MR. BAKER: I don't have a problem. I think we ought to cooperate and save our clients money. That's what I think we ought to do, but -- because cooperation saves clients an awful lot of money rather than running into court. MR. PETROCELLI: That's not something we've ever done. MR. BAKER: But I think after a week we might have a way to do it through the duration of this case. So if we do, fine. If we don't, we both know how to do it the hard way. MR. PETROCELLI: Good afternoon. Mr. Baker. MR. BAKER: Good afternoon. Have a nice weekend. (ENDING TIME 4:04 P.M.) I DECLARE UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY THAT THE FOREGOING IS TRUE AND CORRECT SUBSCRIBED AT CALIFORNIA, THIS ____DAY OF ___, 19___. ORENTHAL JAMES Simpson Q: Good morning, Mr. Simpson. A: Good morning, MR. Petrocelli. Q: I see you got my name right today. Have you done any preparation for this deposition session? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Have you spoken to anybody in preparing for today's deposition? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. MR. PETROCELLI: On what grounds? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Attorney-client privilege. MR. PETROCELLI: Well, he may have done non-privileged things. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Then you can ask him about non-privileged things, but you are not going to ask him that broad question. MR. PETROCELLI: You are instructing him on those questions? MR. ROBERT BAKER: You bet. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Have you spoken to anyone other than lawyers? A: No. Q: Have you read -- Pages 1544 A: About this -- Q: Yeah. A: -- deposition? No. Q: To get ready for today's -- A: Huh? Q: To get ready for today's session. A: No. Q: Have you read anything? A: No. Q: Have you read your prior deposition transcript? A: No. Q: When did you first meet Nicole? A: Summer of 1977. Q: Where did you meet her? A: At a place called the Daisy. Q: In Beverly Hills? A: Yes. Q: And what was she doing there? A: She was -- I think she was a hostess. Q: Were you there alone? A: No. Q: Who were you with? A: Joe Stellini. Q: Just the two of you? A: Well, we went in just the two of us, Yes. Q: And did you start up a relationship with Nicole at that time? A: A few days later. Q: You called her? A: No. Q: How did you get in touch with her? A: I was having lunch at the Daisy and she came in. Q: Now, Nicole was how old at the time? A: 18. Q: And you were how old.? A: I believe 28, 29 maybe. Q: 29? A: Yeah. Q: Were you married? A: Yes. Q: Were you separated? A: We had just finished a separation, so we were trying to see if we would get back together. Q: You and Marquerite? A: Yes. Q: That's your first wife? A: Yes. Q: When did you marry Marquerite? A: 1967. Q: And when did you end your marriage with her? A: Officially? It was probably 19 -- I don't know. Late '70s. Q: After you met Nicole? A: Uh-huh. Yes. Q: During the time -- Strike that. When you met up with Nicole in the summer of 1977 after the first couple times seeing her, did you begin dating her? A: Yeah. Q: In other words, did you start a romantic relationship with her? A: Yes. Yes. Q: And at that time you were married to Marquerite. Right? A: Yes. Q: And living with Marquerite. Right? A: When I was in L.A., yeah. Q: You were a professional football player at the time -- A: Yes. Q: -- and you were traveling? A: Well, I lived in New York, and she didn't move to New York with me. I lived in Buffalo during the season. Q: During the football season. Right? A: And Marquerite didn't move to New York with me. Q: And during the off-season you came back to the home of Marquerite and you in Los Angeles? A: At the end of that year for a while, yes. Q: End of 77? A: Yes, for a while. Q: At what point did you permanently move out of your home with Marquerite? A: Sometime after I got back from football in '78. Q: -- '8? A: Yes. Q: So where did you move -- where did you live in Los Angeles when you came back after the 1978 football season? A: After I left, I can't recall if we were on Mulholland Drive or where at that time. I lived for a while in the Westwood Marquis. Q: Alone there? A: Yes. Q: And then you moved where? A: I lived between there and an apartment on Wilshire Boulevard, and then I went back to Buffalo -- oh, I went to San Francisco, and... Q: Where does Mulholland fit in here? Is that the home with Marquerite? A: Yes. Q: Okay. Now, during this first couple of years that you knew Nicole, let's say up to your divorce from Marquerite, what you said was late '70s, did you live with Nicole? A: No. Q: When did you first live with Nicole? A: I think when I came back from probably right at '80. Right at '80, after the '79 season. Q: So January of '80? A: I would say, yeah. Q: And -- A: That's an estimate. Q: Where did you and Nicole move to? A: I think I rented a place at the -- well, I rented a place on -- at the end of Stone Canyon. At the end of Stone Canyon. Q: And that was the first home of Nicole and you? A: Uh-huh. Q: You have to answer audibly. A: Yes. Q: Before you moved into Stone Canyon for the first three years that you and Nicole knew each other, how regularly did you see one another? A: Quite regular. Q: Did you -- was she your principal mate, so to speak? A: After the first year, yes. After we had known each other a year, I would say yes. Q: Okay. And where did Nicole live during those three years from '77 to January of '80? A: She had a place in Westwood right off of Wilshire and Veteran. And then she had a place on Bedford. Q: Did you furnish those places for her? A: Yes. Q: Both of them? A: Yes. Q: Okay. And was she working? A: Sometimes. Q: When you were playing football did she travel with you? A: No. Q: So she was at home in Los Angeles. A: She visited me in Buffalo and then spent a lot of time in San Francisco with me. Q: When was the first season you were in San Francisco? A: '78. Q: Okay. So starting September of '78. Right? A: Yes. Q: And how many seasons were you in San Francisco? A: Two. Q: '78 to '79; '79 to '80. Right? A: Uh-huh. Q: You had an apartment in San Francisco during those two years? A: A condominim, yes. Q: That you purchased? A: Yes. Q: And Nicole lived there with you? A: When she was in San Francisco, yes. Q: So during the years '78-79, '79-80, Nicole was shuttling between the places you provided for her in Los Angeles and the condo in San Francisco. Is that right? A: The place that I helped her with in Los Angeles and the place in San Francisco, yes. Q: You say "helped her." You mean she- A: I gave her money when she couldn't pay the rent, and sometimes she could pay the rent. Q: What was she doing for a living? A: She was working at the Daisy. Q: For a couple of years? A: A year. Q: And then after that what? A: She decorated. She started decorating for me. She decorated my place, and then just decorated. Q: She earned income from decorating? A: From decorating, and she -- I went to Vegas a few times and made a lot of money, and she made a lot of money also. Q: You mean gambling? A: Yes. Q: Excuse me. When is the last time that she worked for a living? A: I would say late '80s. Q: And did she work from the '70s through the late '80s? A: Depending if she had a decorating job. Q: So whenever she worked, it was in the decorating business? A: Yes. Q: And she would do interior decorating of homes? A: Yes. Q: Okay. What's the home that you purchased that she decorated it that you just mentioned a few momeents ago? Stone Canyon? A: No. Brentwood. Q: Oh, Rockingham? A: Rockingham. Q: Did you move from Stone Canyon to Rockingham? A: Yes. Q: Okay.How many years did you live in Stone Canyon? A: I think just one off-season or one spring. Q: That was a rental, you said? A: Yes. Q: And when did you move into Rockingham? A: I don't know. Q: When did you purchase it? A: I purchased it in '77, but it had to go through a lot of renovations and changes before we moved into it. Q: Was it vacant for two or three years? A: Maybe a year. Q: Did someone live in it before you? A: Yes. Q: You rented it out? A: No Q: Who lived there? A: A family called the Eastons. Q: Why were they living there? A: Because they owned it. Q: You said you purchased it in '77. A: From the Eastons. Q: And they continued to live there? A: No. Q: No. After -- they moved out when you purchased it in '77. Right? A: Yes. Q: And you didn't move in until sometime in 1980 -- or '81, actually. A: Yes. Q: So for those four years who was living at Rockingham.? A: I don't think it was four years, because I didn't purchase it until late '77. then I did a major renovation, which took the better part of a year, and then Marquerite and Jason and Arnelle moved in. Q: I see. A: And then our divorce was final, and I moved back in. Q: Well, was Rockingham a home that you purchased when you were still married to and living with Marquerite? A: Before I met Nicole, yes. Q: I see. So when you met Nicole, you and Marquerite and children were living at Rockingham. A: No. Q: But moved into Rockingham while you met Nicole -- while you were dating Nicole. Right? A: Yes, when I was seeing Nicole, yes. Q: Okay. And when did Marquerite move out of Rockingham? A: Whenever our divorce was final, and I don't recall when that was. Q: And then after she moved out, you moved in with Nicole? A: Yes. Q: And generally speaking, what was the time frame of that? A: '80. Q: Sometime after January '80? A: Yeah, I guess, yes. Yes. Q: Okay. Now, from January '80 until when did Nicole live with you at Rockingham.? A: Her primary residence was that until we divorced -- I mean until we separated. Q: Okay. And you -- Nicole filed for divorce in January of 1992. Correct? A: January or February. Late January or early February. Q: Okay. And when did she move out? A: Late January. Q: When she filed? A: Well, we were separating, and I told her that if she didn't file, I would. So after three weeks of just being separated she found a place, and around that same time she filed. Q: During the time period when Nicole first moved in with you at Rockingham until she moved out in January-February of 1992, were you ever separated for marital reasons? A: I'm sorry. Say that again. Q: Were the two of you ever separated during that time frame because of marital problems? A: Between what? Q: When the first time she moved in Rockingham in January of '80 and when she left in early 1992. A: Separated? Q: Yeah. A: You got to be more definitive, because I can't help you. Q: In other words, did you move out or did she move out for any period of time because of difficulties in your marriage? A: Move out? We weren't married for the first four or five years we were at Rockingham so it wouldn't have been a marital thing. For a day or a week, yes, she moved out from time to time, a day or a week maybe. Q: What's the longest she moved out? A: I don't recall. Q: What's the longest you moved out A: I never moved out. Q: When did you get married? A: '85. Q: On what day? A: February 2nd. Q: February 2, 1985? A: Yes, I believe so. Q: And when was Sydney born? A: In '85. Q: What's her birthday? A: October 17th. Q: And Justin? A: I believe it was '7 ---I mean '87. Q: 1987? A: Yes. I'm trying to think if it was '88. Maybe in '88. Q: '88? A: Well, I'm just trying to think. He's two years younger, but it's August 6th. Q: '88? A: I believe it's '88, yes. Q: Did Nicole move out -- you said she moved out from time to time. Did she do so between the time she first moved in in early 1980 and the date of your marriage in February of '85? A: Yes. Q: About how many times? A: I don't know. Q: Can you estimate for us? A: No, I can't. Q: Why did she move out from time to time? A: We had disagreements. Q: About what; A: Various things. I don't know. At one point I didn't want to get married. Q: From the time that you got married in February of 1985 until January-February of 1992, did Nicole move out from time to time? A: Give me that again. Q: From the time that you and Nicole got married in February of 1985 until the time that she moved out permanently when she filed for divorce, during that interval of time, seven years approximately, did she move out of Rockingham from time to time? A: Move out? Q: Yeah, like for a week or- A: Well, not move out, no. We had another place, so if we were not getting along, she sometimes would go to our other place. Q: What is that other place? A: It was in Laguna. Q: When was Laguna purchased? A: I don't recall. Q: Roughly. A: Mid -- early, mid '80s. I believe before I was married. Q: Before your marriage to Nicole? A: I believe so, yes. I'm not a hundred percent sure of that, but I believe before I was married. Q: And when did you purchase the place in New York? A: '8 ---well,'90. I believe it was '90. Q: Did Nicole ever move into the New York place? A: Yes. Q: Did she ever move in there because of a break in your relationship? A: No. Q: just to join you while you were in New York? A: Yes. Q: Did Nicole ever move into the Laguna place because of a break in your relationship? A: No. Q: You said she went down there to stay from time to time when -- A: Yeah. Q: -- you had problems? A: Well, when we had problems and quite often when we didn't have problems. We lived in Laguna during the summers most times. Q: Okay. During your relationship with Nicole from, let's say, January '80 to 1992, did you have any other residences besides New York, Laguna and Rockingham? A: She did. I mean she owned property, but no. Q: Where did she own? A: San Francisco. Q: Is that something you had purchased when you were living in San Francisco? A: Yes. Q: And as part of the prenuptial agreement, you gave her that property? A: Essentially. yes. Q: Is something incorrect about what I said? A: No. I say essentially that's what it was, yes. Q: What do you mean by "essentially"? A: I just wanted her to have some income, and I gave her that so that she could have some income to -- Q: You owned it in your name- A: Yeah. Q: -- and you transferred it to her? A: Yes. Q: Did she assume the mortgage? A: There was no mortgage for her. Q: Was it paid off already? A: Essentially, yes. Q: You took care of it? A: No. I -- part of it was in my trust at the time. I guess there was a loan on it in my trust, and most of it was paid off, but to her it was free and clear. Q: So You transferred that property to her roughly 1985? A: Yes. Q: And from that point on did she rent that property out? A: Yes. Q: And did she ever use it as a residence? A: No. Q: And did you? A: No. Q: Now, did Nicole own any other property besides San Francisco? A: I believe So. I believe she -- well, I knew she had something in Laguna, but I -- you know, Nicole's business was her business. Q: The place in Laguna, is that something you bought for her? A: No. Q: She bought it on her own? A: Yes. Q: And did she buy it during your marriage A: Yes. Q: Is that a place where you and she ever stayed? A: No. Q: She rented that out? A: Yes. Q: Okay. So she had two rental units, right, Laguna and San Francisco, during a good part of your marriage? A: Yes. MR. ROBERT BAKER: You don't even look like Ed. MR. PETROCELLI: Got a little more hair. MR. KELLY: It would take me a long time. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Now, did you -- you and Nicole, you said, had a number of disagreements and she would move out from time to time or go stay in Laguna. Did -- And you said one of the causes of these disagreements was your desire not to get married. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, he didn't talk about a "number of disagreements." THE WITNESS: I don't think I said she moved out either. I don't think I said she moved out. She went -- moved out is taking all your clothes and everything. I don't recall her doing that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Well, did she ever move out in that sense during the entire time that you were A: I don't recall that. Q: -- living at Rockingham together? A: I don't recall that ever happening. Q: Where she took all her belongings and said, "Look, I'm gone. I'm moved out." Except for the the last time, of course. A: Maybe once. Q: When was that? A: The day before we got engaged. Q: Is that because you wouldn't get engaged? A: Partially, yes. Q: And you solved that problem by A: Getting Q: -- agreeing to marry her? A: Yes. Q: Okay. Did she physically move out? A: She just took some things. Q: And how long was she gone? A: That night. Q: One night. A: Yes. Q: What other reasons did you have conflicts and disagreements with her such that she would go stay someplace else for a while? A: One time she found some phone numbers of girls, and other than that I can't specifically tell you. Q: You can only remember one occasion where she went to stay someplace else because she was upset that you were seeing other women? A: No, that's not what I said. Q: You said she saw phone numbers of girls. I take it that means that she thought you were cheating on her. A: I don't know about what she thought, but there were phone numbers, and she moved. Not moved. Left for a day or two or few days. Q: You and she had an argument about this? A: I'm sure we had, yes. Q: And what year was that? A: I don't know. Q Mid '80s? A: In the '80s, yes. Q: After marriage? A: I don't know. Q: During one of her pregnancies? A: She never moved out when she was pregnant, no. Q: Who were the girls whose phone numbers -- A: I have no idea. Q: -- caused this disagreement? A: I have absolutely no idea. Q: Can you recall anything about your disagreement with her on this subject? A: No. Q: Did you argue frequently about infidelity on your part? A: No. Q: Did you ever argue about that? A: Yes. Q: On how many occasions? A: I don't know. Q: More than a dozen? A: No. Q: More than five? A: I don't know. Q: Was it the most constant -- was it the most frequent topic of conflict between the two of you during your 12-year relationship at Rockingham? A: I'd say no. Q: What was? A: I don't know. Q: Did you have any topic of -- common topic of conflict or disagreement between the two of you? A: My traveling. Q: How many times did you fight over your seeing other women or her thinking you were seeing other women? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, when you say, "fight," have verbal disagreements? Is that what you mean by a fight? MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah. Q: Well, you already said you never physically hit her. Right? MR. ROBERT BAKER: He said he physically had an encounter with her on January 1st, 1989-You've gone into that in great detail. MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah. Q: Well, you never hit her. Right? A: No, I never punched her or anything like that, no. Q: By the way, you never kicked her either. Is that right? A: That's correct. Q: My question was: How many times did you fight over your seeing other women or her thinking you were seeing other women? I'm not limiting it to MR. ROBERT BAKER: And again, that's verbal disagreements? MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah. THE WITNESS: I couldn't say. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: There was the one occasion in 1989 having to do with Katherine. Correct? A: No. that's absolutely wrong. Q: Why is that wrong? A: Katherine was Marcus' girl. We didn't fight over that. Q: But you and she were that evening -- the fight that evening began a discussion about Katherine, did it not? MR. ROBERT BAKER: You mean -- are you talking January 1st, 1989 again? MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Okay. THE WITNESS: What do you mean? You have to be a little more clear. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Let me ask you this, yes: In January of '89 when you had the incident with her, did that have anything to do with her belief that you were being unfaithful? A: I don't know what her belief was. She had a conversation with Katherine Allen. You should call Katherine Allen. She was wrong. She ended up talking to Katherine Allen and realizing she was wrong. So you would have to talk to Katherine Allen about that. Q: We will, and Marcus Allen as well, once we can get them served. They apparently don't want to be served. A: I don't blame them. Q: Anyway, what was Nicole's concern expressed to you about Katherine and/or Marcus Allen? A: She had a conversation with Katherine. She misinterpreted something that Katherine told her. Q: What did Katherine tell her? A: Something about earrings. Q: What about earrings? A: Katherine was talking about the earrings Marcus had bought her, and while Nicole was, from what I gather, you know, gushing over how nice those earrings were that Katherine was -- Marcus had bought Katherine, Katherine said something, "Well, look at you. Look what you got," and Nicole misinterpreted that as that -- I don't know. You have to ask -- you know, Nicole never was clear about it to me, so you'd have to talk to -- Nicole ended up talking to Katherine Allen, and they got it straightened out. Q: Well, what I don't understand about that is: What caused Nicole to get upset with you about Katherine's comment to her, "Look what you got"? A: I'm assuming that Nicole felt that what Katherine was saying that I bought some earrings, but what Katherine was referring to was I guess Nicole wasn't aware that she was dripping in diamond earrings that night, and that's what Katherine was referring to. Q: That you had bought earrings for whom? A: I don't know. You have to talk to Katherine about that. I never got that clear from Nicole. Q: Did Nicole accuse you of buying earrings for another woman? A: She said something about, "What about the earrings that Katherine was talking about?" and from that point it turned into an argument. Q: Did you know what she was talking about, by the way? A: Not at all. As a matter of fact, I tried to get Katherine on the phone for Nicole to clear it up, to find out what was going on, but Nicole wouldn't talk to Katherine, and I guess the next day they did. Q: Where did Katherine live? In Los Angeles? A: Yes. Q: So you were going to call her at, what A: Marcus' house, yes. Q: 2:00, 3:00, 4:00 in the morning.? A: Yes. Q: What time was it; A: Whatever. 2:00, 3:00, 4:00 in the morning. Q: To straighten this out? A: No. For Nicole to -- Hey, you know, Nicole couldn't tell me what she was talking about. so -- and she had mentioned Katherine's name, so I said, "Hey, well, get Katherine on the phone and let's straighten it out. "But typically she didn't want to straighten it out. She wanted to argue. Q: During the course of your relationship with Nicole, would you say you argued quite a bit? A: No. Q: Frequently? A: No. Q: On a regular basis? A: No. MR. ROBERT BAKER: It was scheduled at 10:00 o'clock every Monday. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Once a month? A: We probably had -- Well, when you said "argument" Q: Yeah. A: -- I don't know what "argument" -- Q: Would you fight and argue a lot? A: No. Q: Would you say that your relationship was a stormy one? A: No. Q: Would you say that it was a healthy relationship? A: I thought we had a great relationship. Q: For the entire time that the two of you were together? A: I thought until '92 when we started to split, we had our ups and downs like every relationship, but I think -- we had a tremendous relationship, a relationship that everybody seemed to want to share with us because they were always around. Q: How do you know they wanted to share that? A: Because they were always around. That's what I interpreted that to mean. Q: But you were a celebrity. Right? A: Yes. Q: So that's why they were around. Right? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well. don't answer. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: But did they tell you. "O.J. and Nicole, we really envy your relationship. We" -- MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer this. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Is that what people told you? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. THE WITNESS: I've heard that before. MR. PETROCELLI: He is making a statement. I am entitled to examine him about it, MR. Baker. MR. ROBERT BAKER: You are not entitled to ask speculative questions and ask a witness to speculate as to what people BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Don't speculate. I agree with your lawyer on that. We don't want any speculation.We just want your recollection of what things -- what ]were said. A: Okay. Q: Your perception, based on what people said and how they behaved, is that they wanted to be around Nicole and you because you two had a great relationship. Is that right? A: Yes. Q: And you said you had your "ups and downs.' What were the downs? A: My scheduling. I traveled quite a bit, Nicole and I were both bullheaded and quite often didn't agree on the same things. I'm the type of guy that when I get into something, I get a little manic about it, golf being one. Golf became an issue with the two of us. Q: When? A: Probably the late '80s into the '90s. Q: What else became an issue between the two of you besides golf and your traveling? A: As I stated before, finding phone numbers Q: You said that happened on one occasion. A: One occasion I recall. Q: No other occasions. A: There Q: Right? A: There were occasions she saw phone numbers. I get -- people give me numbers all the time, so -- I get cards and numbers from everybody. So it's on an occasion that I recall specifically that happening, but -- yeah. Q: Where did she find these phone numbers? A: Whenever I get home, I empty my pockets -- off a road trip or something, I would empty my pockets on my vanity, and at one point I guess she went through my drawer and found the phone number found phone numbers. Q: And how many times during the entire time you lived with her at Rockingham were you unfaithful? MR. ROBERT BAKER: You don't have to answer that. Don't answer that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: How many extramarital relationships did you have? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that either. MR. PETROCELLI: Well, he said they had a great relationship. I am entitled to examine him about- MR. ROBERT BAKER: I don't agree with you, and he is not going to answer that question. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: You don't want to answer that question? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that question either. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Were you unfaithful? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that question. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Now, isn't it true that you were having sexual relations in the same house that you were living with Nicole at the time that she was in that home? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Isn't that true? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: During one of her pregnancies? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. MR. PETROCELLI: MR. Baker, I am entitled to probe his entire history of his relationship with Nicole. MR. ROBERT BAKER: I disagree with you, and he is not going to answer it. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Didn't you and she have a confrontation over your having sex with another woman in the guesthouse at Rockingham? A: Never. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't -- Go ahead. You've answered it. THE WITNESS: Never. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: That event never occurred? A: Never. Never, ever. Q: Had you ever heard that report -- event reported in the news or the media? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. It's irrelevant, what you've heard. I've heard everything reported in the news media. MR. PETROCELLI: You didn't think it was irrelevant, what MR. Kaelin heard in the media. Q: In any event MR. ROBERT BAKER: Make your speeches outside in front of the microphones. MR. PETROCELLI: We're saving them for you, MR. Baker. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, you are going to save them a long time. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did you ever have a relationship with another woman in the same at your Rockingham residence while Nicole was there? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did you ever fight with Nicole over such an incident? A: Never. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't -- Go ahead. You've answered it. THE WITNESS: Never. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Never? A: Never. Q: Did you have a difficult time with Nicole's pregnancies? A: No. Q: Did you become abusive towards her during her pregnancies? A: No. Q: How many times was she pregnant? A: By me? Q: [Nods head.] A: That I know of, four. Q: And two of them were aborted? A: Yes. Q: Before your marriage? A: No. One before; one after. Q: When was the first one? A: Early on in our relationship. I don't know. Q: You were still -- married to Marquerite? A: I may have been at that time separated from Marquerite. Q: When was the second one? A: I believe '89 or '90. Q: Did you know she had that abortion? A: Yes. Q: Did you agree with it? A: No. We had an argument about it. Q: Tell me about that argument. A: I didn't want her to have an abortion. She had said that after Sydney and Justin, that she would never have an abortion again, yet she wanted an abortion. Q: Why; A: I don't know. Q: What did she tell you? A: She just didn't want to go through being pregnant. She didn't want to have any more kids. At that time she didn't. Q: Did she -- did you say the abortion was in 1989 or 1990? A: Yes. Q: Which year? A: 0ne of the two, I don't recall exactly. Q: Mr. Simpson, was this abortion after or before the January 1, 1989 incident? A: After. Q: Okay. Do you know how long after that incident she got pregnant? A: No. Q: By the way, was she pregnant at any other time by someone else other than you? You said A: That I know of? Q: Yeah, that you know of A: Once. Q: When was that? A: I think in '9 -- '92. Q: How did you find that out? A: She told me. Q: Is it during the time that the two of you were separated? A: Yes. Q: And she was living at Gretna Green? A: Yes. Q: Excuse me. Did she tell you about it beforehand? MR. ROBERT BAKER: "Beforehand," what's that mean? MR. PETROCELLI: Before the abortion. THE WITNESS: Yes. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did she seek your advice on what to do? A: No. Q: She just told you what she was going to do? A: She was emotional, and she just needed someone to talk to. Q: And you talked to her about it? A: Yes. Q: And did she tell you who the father was? A: I didn't ask. Q: Do you know? A: No. Q: Do you have any information as to who the father is? A: I can guess, but it would be a guess. Q: Why would it be a guess? MR. ROBERT BAKER: He doesn't want you to guess. THE WITNESS: Well. Why, because she was seeing evidently different people so BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Who was she seeing at that time? A: At the time she talked to me, I assumed she was seeing a guy named Joseph. Q: Joseph Perulli? A: I don't know his last name. Q: This is the same Joseph who was at the Jenners' Christmas party in December of 1993? A: Correct. But then she told me a month later that she hadn't been seeing this guy, she hadn't been seeing Joseph since like June Q: Of '92? A: Yeah. So, you know, I never asked her who the guy was. I assume it was this Brett guy, but you don't want me to assume. Q: Brett Shaves? A: Yes. Q: He worked for her divorce lawyers. Right? A: I've been told that, yes. Q: Getting back to this previous abortion in 19 -- after the 1989 incident, did you and she argue -- Well, withdrawn. Did she express to you her desire to have an abortion because of physical abuse by her A: No. Q: -- by you against her? A: No. Q: Or because she did not want to suffer any mistreatment during pregnancy? A: No. Q: None of that was expressed to you? A: None of it, no. Q: Did she say anything to you along the lines that you had given her a hard time during the previous pregnancies, and she didn't want to live through that again? A: No. Q: What was the reason she gave you.? A: We were moving MR. ROBERT BAKER: Asked and answered. Don't answer it. You've already told him. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: You were moving where? Please complete your answer. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't. I told him not to answer the question. You've asked and answered it. MR. PETROCELLI: MR. Baker, you cut him off in the middle of a question. Besides MR. ROBERT BAKER: No. I cut him off in the middle of an answer. MR. PETROCELLI: Middle of an answer. Excuse me. Besides, I don't think it's appropriate to instruct on asked and answered when following up On this area. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well. you're entitled to your opinion. MR. PETROCELLI: You are not going to let him answer? MR. ROBERT BAKER: You're right. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: How many conversations did you have about her getting this abortion before she had it done? A: I don't know. Q: More than one? A: She was very emotional about it, so I think when we talked about it the first time, I avoided the conversation, and then she went and had it done. Q: When she went and had it done, did you know that she was doing so? A: Yes. Q: Okay. So she cleared it with you first. A: Right? MR. ROBERT BAKER: I don't know what -- Don't answer that. I don't know what that means. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did the two of you reach a mutual decision that she would have it done? A: No. Q: So she had it done against your wishes. A: Yes. Q: Did she seek any counseling at that time to your knowledge? A: I don't know. Q: Did you and she seek any counseling with respect to this decision? A: No. Not that I know of. Not that I recall. Q: Did she have any medical treatment for injuries during that pregnancy that resulted in the abortion? A: No. Not that I know of, no. Q: Did she have any medical treatment for injuries during her pregnancy with Justin? A: No. Q: And did she have any medical treatment for injuries during her pregnancy with Sydney? A: No. Q: Do you know if she ever had any medical treatment for injuries during your relationship with her? A: No. Q: Do you know if she received any medical treatment as a result of her injuries from the 1989 incident, New Year's Eve? A: I know she didn't. I wanted her to go, and she did, and there was nothing for him to do. Q: She did seek medical treatment? A: No. I asked A.C. to take her to -- she had a headache or something, and I -- we didn't know if it was from a hangover or from our tussle, so I asked A.C. to take her to have her checked, but ---she went down; there was nothing to do, Q: Where did they go? A: I think St. John's. Q: Emergency room? A: Yes. Q: And that was on New Year's Day? A: That was after the whole police thing. Q: Later on in the morning, you mean? A: Well, the police didn't see fit to take her to anyplace, so I thought just in case, she should. Q: When you say the "Police didn't see fit,' what do you mean by that? A: They obviously -- they didn't take her anyplace for any medical treatment, so, you know, I thought she should go to someplace for them to take a look. Q: Are you saying that they should have taken her? A: I don't know. I don't know if they should have or shouldn't have. They obviously didn't see fit to, and they didn't, and when I asked her, she said they didn't. And I said, "Well, you should go," and she didn't want to go, and told A.C. to take her. Q: When you had this conversation that she should go, was this in person A: Yes. Q: Is this after the police left? A: Yes. Q: So when you left the residence while the police were there, where did you go? A: I went to a friend's house. Q: Whose house? A: Alan Schwartz. Q: And how long did you stay there A: 40 minutes maybe, the first time. Q: Then where did you go? A: Back to my house. Q: Were the police gone? A: Yes. Q: And was Nicole there? A: Yes. Q: Had she gone to the police station? A: I didn't know at that time. Q: Do you know whether she went at all that day to the police station? A: Now I do, but at the time I didn't. Q: Okay. And when you got back, was it just you and she there alone? A: And A.C. Q: And how did A.C get there? A: I don't know. I think Arnelle called him. Q: How did Arnelle know about this? A: Well, she was the one that told -- her and Michelle were the people that told me to leave because they thought I was gonna get into a -- like we were in an argument with this Detective Edwards, I believe it was. Q: Arnelle was living there at the time? A: She was home at the time, yes. Q: And Michelle was the housekeeper. Right? A: Yes. Q: And she was living there, too. Right? A: Yes. Q: Did either Arnelle or Miche1le witness any of the physical confrontation that you and Nicole had that evening? A: Between Nicole and I? Q: Yeah. A: No. Q: When the police were on the scene, Arnelle and Michelle told you to leave? A: Yes. Q: And the reason that they told you was to avoid a confrontation with the police? A: With Detective Edwards. Q: And was there some reason why they feared that you might have a confrontation with Detective Edwards? A: Because he was an asshole. Q: And describe how he behaved. A: He was saying things to me like ---I don't know -- "You two should be apart. She should leave you." And I said something to him, "I thought you were supposed to be diffusing this situation here," and he made another comment, and I said, "Well, who are you to be saying this to me?" And at that point they were telling me, "0.J.," you know, "Dad, you should" -- "Dad, don't do this," because we were standing out, and Nicole was trying to get out of the car, and Nicole said something about the babies. And I said, "There's two women in here to take care of the babies," and he said that to them and -- I don't know. He and I had some words, and then Arnelle and Michelle was saying, "Dad, O.J., just go." Q: What were these words that you and Edwards had? A: I don't know. He was saying things to me that I thought a police officer -- I thought his job at that particular time was to diffuse the situation, and he was doing just the opposite of that. Q: What was he doing? A: I don't know. He seemed to be trying to bait me. Q: Bait you into doing what? A: I don't know. Q: Bait you into getting upset, you mean? A: Well, he was succeeding into that, yes. Q: Did he use profanity towards you? A: I think at one point, yes Q: Did you towards him? A: I don't recall. I may have, but I really don't recall. I don't recall doing that no. Q: You heard him testify at the criminal trial? A: Yes. Q: Did he describe the incident accurately to the best of your recollection? A: Oh, no. He lied on numerous things. Q: He did? A: Yes. Q: Tell me. A: Well, he said that Nicole told him, and I don't believe Nicole would have lied to him, that the reason for the fight was that I had some of my house help in bed. Q: That you were sleeping with your house help? A: Yeah, Michelle or Ruth. I mean, I think the Browns are still pretty close to Ruth -- Q: Who is Ruth? A: -- and if they thought that, they certainly wouldn't be still close to her. Michelle -- when you see Michelle. I don't think you would buy that either. And I know Nicole didn't say that to him, and I know that Nicole has never said that to anybody, and since there was a female officer there also Q: What was her name? A: I have no idea. And somehow they've hid her effectively. Q: Hid her? A: Yes. Q: She didn't testify? A: Yeah, of course not. And now I understand why this guy was on the Christopher Commission at that time. Q: Who? A: Detective Edwards. Q: What does that have to do with anything? A: It has to do with the way he obviously was treating me. He must have been reported for that with other people, because he wouldn't have been on a list that in my mind singled out 40 officers out of 7 -- or 8,000 officers as officers who have had problems. Q: Is that the first time that you had experienced a problem with an LAPD? A: Yes. Or any officer, for that matter. Q: Any officer. A: Yeah. Q: Would that be true through June 12, 1994? A: That's correct. Q: So through June 12, 1994, the only time you had a problem with any law enforcement person was Detective Edwards? A: Yes. Q: On the one occasion on January 1 '89. Right? A: That's what I believe, yes. Q: Did you file a report against MR. Edwards? A: No. Q: Detective Edwards. Excuse me. A: Detective Ferrill spoke to me about it the next day. I told him that -- you know, he seemed to be as interested in Detective Ferrill -- I mean Detective Edwards as me. And I just said, "Hey, this guy wasn't a good guy but I didn't want to get into it because I just wanted this thing to go away Q: So, Detective Ferrill, based on your conversation with him, appeared to agree with you, that Edwards- A: No. He seemed to be interested in asking me questions about how Detective Edwards -- you know, what happened with him and I said, "Well. we had some words." And he said, "What?" And I said, "You know, I really don't want to get into that, you know. I just want to deal with whatever I got to do to make this thing go away." Q: Did you not pursue it any further other than talk to Detective Ferrill, that is, pursue your complaint against Detective Edwards? A: Correct. Q: Now, who is Ruth? A: Ruth was a nanny Q: What's Ruth's last name? A: I don't know. Lou Brown could tell you that. Q: Does she still work for the Brown family? A: No. No. She -- no she certainly doesn't work for them. She came out to help out and from what I'm told, didn't get paid anything. So she's not working for them. Q: Now, did you and Nicole have any disagreement that evening over your sleeping with house help? A: No. And never have we. Q: Never A: Ever Q: Do you know -- do you have any knowledge or information as to what the basis of that comment by Edwards was? A: He's the only guy I've ever heard say anything remotely like that, so you would have to ask -- you know, I have my opinions, but, you know -- Q: What's your opinion? A: I believe he's a racist, is what I believe he is, and a liar. Q: You mean racist against African Americans? A: Yes. Q: Did you believe that at the time? A: I believe something was wrong with him at the time. I didn't know he would sit on the stand and say that Nicole told him I was trying to make -- was having sex with my house help. Q: Is that the first time you had heard that? A: Yes. Q: Is on the witness stand? A: Yes. Q: You didn't hear it at the time? A: I never heard it any time in my life until he said it just blurted it out on the stand. It was amazing. Q: You had no contact with Detective Edwards between January 1, '89 -- well, actually, you never talked to him or saw him after January 1 '89. Is that right? A: As far as I know, no. I wouldn't recognize him, anyway. Q: You haven't filed -- Well, withdrawn. When you left Alan Schwartz's house and you came back to Rockingham, you said Cowlings was there? A: Yes. Q: And then you asked Cowlings to take Nicole to St John's Hospital? A: Yeah. Nicole said -- I said, "You know, you better" -- you know, she said her -- she was looking for some aspirin or something, and I said. "Do your head bother you?" And she says, "Yeah, I'm just getting a headache," and she didn't want to talk. And I said, "Well, you should have that checked." And A.C. was there, and Nicole didn't want to talk to me, so I got some clothes and left. Q: Where did you go? A: Back to Alan Schwartz's. Q: How long did you stay with MR. Schwartz? A: A day. Q: And you came back to Rockingham then? A: Yes. But I was upset also. I was pretty upset about the whole thing- - MR. ROBERT BAKER: He didn't ask you if you were upset. He asked you when you came back. THE WITNESS: Yes. Well, I came back to get some clothes. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Well, you came back that day to get clothes and went back to Schwartz's and stayed there one night. Right? A: Yeah. Q: Then you came back to Rockingham, and did you go someplace else? A: Yeah. I stayed a few nights at a friend of mine's house named Mike Ornstein. Q: So the first night was at Schwartz's house -- A: Yeah. Q: -- and then Ornstein for two nights? A: Yeah. Q: And then back at Rockingham? A: I was at Rockingham most of the time during that period of time, but I just felt I needed some distance. Q: Why were you upset? A: Because I thought it was a -- I thought it was a -- I thought we had had a great night; we had had, what I felt, a great -- a great period of time together, and to me it was -- for the argument to start the way it did was wrong, and I wasn't happy with that. Q: You blamed Nicole for that, the way the argument started? A: For the way it started, yes. Not for my actions, but the way it started. My actions, I was totally responsible for. Q: When you -- During the three days that you were staying out at your friends' homes, did you talk to Nicole? A: Yeah. Q: You resolved this pretty quickly? A: Yeah. But, you know, how do you resolve -- when a relationship got physical like that, it's hard to -- I mean, it bothered us both. Q: The first time, in your words, the relationship got physical? A: Like that, yes, first time it ever got physical. Q: Only time? A: Yes. Q: You -- A: I mean, when I said only time, I mean it's the only time that we were physically confronting one another. Nicole's hit me at times. Q: She has? A: But that was nothing. Yeah, I don't consider that no big deal. Q: Why not? A: Because it was -- I didn't call the Police. Q: And calling the police is a big deal? A: Yes. Q: Let me make sure I understand something. You described at length in your prior testimony that the physical confrontation was "rassling." That was your word. Right? A: I was physically trying to remove her from the bedroom, yes. Q: Now, is that the only time that you and she had ever rassled in that way? A: Yes. Q: Okay. And you had never had an occasion other than that incident to have a physical confrontation with her where you were trying to restrain her or remove her? A: At one point she was at a door, and this is something that Denise spoke about, and she started knocking my pictures and things down, and I grabbed her by her arm and put her out the front door. Q: Where was that, Mr. Simpson? A: Rockingham. Q: Denise witnessed that? A: She witnessed that, yes. Q: You, Denise and Nicole. Anyone else present? A: And Ed McCabe. Q: Who is he? Denise's friend? A: He was a friend of Denise's and mine. Q: Are you still friends with him? A: Yes. Q: Have you seen him since you've been out of jail? A: Yes. Q: On how many occasions? A: Twice. Q: When was the last time? A: Can I ask a question? Q: Sure. THE WITNESS: When did you come into town? MR. LEONARD: Sunday. THE WITNESS: Sunday morning. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did you and MR. McCabe talk about this incident? A: This week? No. Q: And the prior time that you met him? A: Pardon me? Q: And the prior time that you were with him -- A: No. Q: -- since you got out of jail? A: No. MR. LEONARD: No, wait a minute. Monday. Let me correct myself. Monday. MR. PETROCELLI: You are not under oath. Don't worry about it, MR. Leonard. MR. LEONARD: No, but since he's- MR. PETROCELLI: But if you want to be, we can take care of that. MR. KELLY: Put you on the list. MR. PETROCELLI: I know MR. Baker likes putting lawyers under oath. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Anyway, what day was this? MR. ROBERT BAKER: What day was what? MR. PETROCELLI: Knocking pictures down in front of Denise and Ed McCabe. THE WITNESS: It was in the early '80s. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: What pictures was she knocking down? A: Whatever pictures that were around. Q: On the stairway? A: Stairway -- I had a table in my entry, armoire, that had a lot of pictures on them and she just swiped them all off. Q: Did they get damaged? A: I don't know. Maybe the frames, maybe the glass. Q: And how far was she from the front door? A: Couple of feet. Q: Couple feet? A: Yeah. Q: And was the door open or closed? A: Open. Q: And you just picked her up- A: I didn't pick her up. I just took her by her arms and just moved her out the front door. Q: While you and she were yelling at one another? A: I wasn't yelling. She may have been saying something, but I don't recall. Q: What was the disagreement about? A: I don't -- I really don't know. Q: Don't have any recollection why Nicole was upset? A: No. Q: Why she was knocking the pictures down? A: No. Q: Is this the only incident that you can recall when you -- when Nicole was throwing pictures down or knocking them down or tossing them or damaging pictures and photos? A: I -- you know, I can't -- I know that I've seen pictures broken, but I can't recall seeing her break them. But, you know, I was in one room; she was in another room. The only other occasion is I was walking on down the street one day, and she drove up and started throwing pictures at me. Q: You were driving down the street A: I was walking down the street. Q: Walking? A: Yeah. Q: What street? A: Little Santa Monica. Q: Walking to or from your car? A: From a restaurant. Q: To your car? A: Actually, I think I was walking to another store. Q: And were you and Nicole having a meal at this restaurant together? A: No. No. Q: What was the time frame? A: Oh, I don't know. Oh, maybe '84. Q: And Nicole came driving by. A: Yeah. Q: And started throwing pictures? A: Like Frisbee-throwing these pictures. Q: What kind of pictures? A: Pictures that she had had framed of us and stuff. Q: Do you know what the cause of this conflict was? A: I was walking out of a restaurant with a guy named Randy England, who -- I can't recall, but I think at the time was one of Denise's boyfriends; and as we were walking out of the restaurant, I can't think of her name, but Elaine Young's daughter was walking down, and we were talking as we walked out, and Nicole showed up -- I mean drove by and just started throwing pictures. Elaine Young's the lady who sold me my house, and -- Q: Rockingham? A: Rockingham. And we weren't with these people. We were walking to another store, and I don't know what Nicole thought, but she Frisbee'd those pictures at us, and she said something very unpleasant to the girl. Q: What did she say.? A: You'd have to ask the girl that. I think -- Q: Do you remember? A: I don't remember. I read it somewhere since -- when I was in jail I read it, because I had forgotten the incident, and I read it when I was in -- Q: What was it that you read? A: I don't know. It was just something that I read when I was -- Q: You don't recall. Is that right? A: I don't recall. Q: Okay. Did you talk to Nicole after this incident to find out what it was all about? A: I tried to. Q: What did she say? A: She didn't. That was the incident -- that was the time she moved out and went to my friends, and I proposed to her the next day. Q: Did Nicole -- A: I remember that portion of it. Q: Do you know how it was Nicole had framed pictures in her car? A: Yeah. She had -- she was having pictures framed. and I guess she was picking them up from the framer. Q: Was she moving out? Is that why she had pictures A: No. Q: -- in the car? A: No. She was just framing pictures of ours. In our home is -- our home was like a photo album. Nicole's big on pictures and frames, and every wall in our house had pictures and frames, and we were constantly traveling and doing things, and she was constantly taking picnurs and constantly framing pictures. Q: Were there any other incidents involving her throwing pictures? A: Not that I recall. She knocked a picture over once. She knocked a couple pictures over once in '93, but she didn't break them or anything. Q: This is at Gretna Green? A: No. This is at my home in Rockingham. Q: What was the date of this incident, Mr. Simpson? A: I would say April of '90. April. Q: And what was the cause of this problem? A: It was she wanted us to get back together. I was reluctant. I had taken a trip with her to -- so we could get away, at my mother's advice, to find out why she wanted to get back together. I spent a few days with her. I came back, and she -- my kids were at my house swimming, and she came by and wanted to know why Paula's pictures were still there, and I said "Because Paula's my girlfriend." And she said, well, that wasn't gonna work, and she slapped the picture and left. But she called and apologized the next day. Q: Was this before you and she had made the agreement under certain ground rules to reconcile? A: Before I laid the ground rules and agreed to try it for a year. This is about a month, I would say, before then. Q: You say you laid them down. A: Yes. Q: Isn't it true that you wanted to get back with her? A: No. Q: As much as she with you? A: No. Q: She was insistent? A: Very insistent. Q: And you relented. A: No. By -- by May I knew I loved her. I didn't know if I was in love with her. I knew I loved the time that we spent with our kids. And when they followed us down to Cabo, that trip, the group of people I was staying with left, and Nicole and the kids asked me could I stay, and I stayed a few extra days, and I truly enjoyed the time that I spent. Nicole and I were very loving in that time, and it was during that time that I -- and it was right around Mother's Day that I told her that I would try it. Q: So your view of this reconciliation is that you took her back, not that she took you back. Is that right? MR. ROBERT BAKER: I don't know that anybody took anybody back. THE WITNESS: Yeah, I don't think it's a view either. I don't think anybody argues or anybody would argue that Nicole was very insistent and -- to get back together. And I told her no the first two or three times, but she wouldn't take no for an answer. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Now, you said you loved her, but you didn't know if you were in love with her. A: Yes. Q: During that following year or the year that ensued, did you ever come to the realization that you were in love with her? A: Once I came to -- it was almost a year. It was either the end of March or the first day or so of April. I was surprised that I was at that point finally amenable to them moving back in, and it was the first time that I honestly felt that -- in my heart, anyway, that maybe this would work, and -- well, and I called Lou Brown and Judy Brown and told them. Q: The first time since your divorce that you felt that way.? A: No. The first three months of -- Oh, my divorce, yes. First time since my divorce for sure, yes. Q: And first time since Nicole starting -- started to pursue you to reconcile that you felt that way. Right? A: Well, she pursued me for two and a half months before I relented. I said two and a half months, and I shouldn't explain this, but when I say "two and a half months," previous to that she had been sending me tapes and cupcakes and stuff. But from the day she showed up at my house with letters and tapes and talking to me about getting back together, from that day to the time that I said okay was about two and a half months. Q: And how long was she sending messages through the children and cupcakes and things like that before she showed up with the letters and the tapes? A: It started in late February. Q: Of 1993? A: Yes. Q: So you had only been officially divorced five or six months. Right? A: Officially divorced, yes, but we had gone on with our lives a lot earlier than that. Q: Okay. So from February '93 till about late March, early April? A: Yes. Q: I may have misspoke. When did she show up at your house with the letters and the tapes? A: In mid -- mid March. Q: Mid March? A: Mid to late -- you know, it was the latter part of March. I know that. Q: There was a letter she wrote you, a long letter? A: Yes. Q: And she gave you some videotapes. Right? A: Well, they were our tapes, and it was -- yeah, and she wanted me to look at them. Q: One was a wedding tape? A: Yes. Q And the other one was of the children? A: Yeah, a wedding tape that's never been sold, and a tape of our children. Q: What do you mean, "never been sold"? A: I never sold it, even though some people wanted to buy it, but they evidently got somebody else to okay them to sell them some tapes. Q: Your wedding tapes have been sold? A: Yes. Q: Do you know who sold them? A: Well, I know who gave the okay. Q: Who? A: The Browns. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Let's take a break. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record. and the time is approximately 10:55. [Recess.] THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 11:16. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Was there a particular event that sticks out in your mind when Nicole showed up at your house with the letters and the tapes? A: Yes. Q: What was that? A: The fact that she showed up. I hadn't seen her in few months. Q: Between February of '93 when she started to send the cupcakes and messages through the kids and this time she showed up, you were not in contact with her? A: Not at all. Q: Not at all? A: Not at all. Q: Did not call her? A: Not at all. Q: Did not return messages back to her? A: I personally didn't, no. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Assuming that there were messages from her. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: You said I think the last session of your deposition or one of them that she used to communicate messages through the kids. A: Yes, or through Cathy Randa. Q: Cathy. That's right. By the time she showed up at your house on this occasion in March of '93, had you already met Paula? A: Paula was my girlfriend. Q:Paula was your girlffiend. That's right. You met her in May of '92. Correct? A: Yes. Q: Okay. In fact you know the day, don't you? A: Roughly, yes. Q: What is it? A: 22nd of May. Well, I met her before the 22nd. I actually met her like on the 12th or 13th. 22nd of May is when we dated, roughly. Q: And you bought her the bracelet as a two-year anniversary, two years later. Right? A: Well, for an anniversary date. We hadn't been together for two years, but... Q: Two-year anniversary date. A: Yes. Q: Okay. Now, when she showed up at your doorstep in March of '93, that was uninvited, I take it. Right? A: Yes. Q: And this is first time you had seen her in a while? A: Seen her, yes. Q: You had spoken on the phone? A: Yes. Q: About getting back together? A: No. Q: Just about the kids? A: No. She had called me right before this. Q: Oh, to -- A: To ask that she needed to talk me. Q: And you said yes? A: No. Q: What did you say? A: I said I didn't -- if it wasn't about the kids, I didn't want to talk. Q: Why were you so adamant about this? A: Because every time I talked to her in the -- well, I was just adamant. I didn't want to deal with her problems because generally when I talked to her, it was about her problems, and I didn't want to be involved in her problems. Q: What were her problems at that time? A: We go back to her being pregnant; went back to her having a problem with some boyfriend; we went back to Thanksgiving she was having a hassle with a boyfriend, and, consequently, didn't bring my kids to New York after we had agreed on it. Consequently, I had to get lawyers involved to get my kids for Christmas. Consequently, at the last minute she wanted to come to New York. It was just -- I just made a decision at one point that if we were going to communicate, it should have been about the kids, and outside of the kids I didn't want any -- to deal with her. Q: When did you make that decision? In other words, what was sort of the last straw where you didn't want to communicate with her anymore except about the kids? After Christmas of '93? A: It wasn't the last straw. It was just after Christmas, after we had a great time together Christmas and she called me -- yeah, after Christmas. After Christmas. It was no specific incident. It was all of those incidences, and I just made up my mind after she left New York that I would only communicate with her when it came to the kids. Q: And that basically held true all of January '93, February '93 and part of March of '93? A: Correct Q: Did -- Let me backup for a second now. During the time before she showed up at your doorstep in mid March of '93, had she ever -- and after your -- the two of you split up, did she ever come talk to you about problems with other men? A: Yes. Q: Lean on your shoulder, so to speak, ask for advice, those kind of things? A: Advice, yes. Q: And about what men did she come talk to you? A: Twice about Joseph, and the pregnancy. Q: What were the two times about Joseph? Tell me about those incidents. A: The first I think she was informing me that she had met a guy that I -- quote, she was crazy about. Evidently she had just spent time in Mexico with him and -- but she didn't know. She didn't know if he had really split up with his girlfriend, and so she was -- you know, it was -- you know, it was her first time, I guess, and her -- since '77 that she was getting into a real relationship with a person other than me, and she just -- I don't think she totally believed that he had split up with his girlfriend or something, and she just was talking to me about it. Q: What was the other occasion? A: I gather at some point in time someone had told her that I was somewhere with -- that I was somewhere and Joseph was with another girl and that I was at this place, and she came over to talk to me about that. Well, she didn't come over. We actually went to dinner, I think, and talked about that. It was in the summer or early June, mid June maybe. Mid June. Q: We're into 1992 now. Right? A: Yeah. We're in the summer of '92, during the summer. Q: So during this time period you and she were split up, not together as a couple, but had a healthy relationship? A: Yes. Yes. Q: Okay. And that lasted until things deteriorated in November of '92 over this Thanksgiving incident; A: Yes. Yes. It was very good right up until when she didn't bring the kids back for Thanksgiving and gave me no reason why. Q: Did you ever talk to her about that? A: I asked her why. Q: And what did she say? A: She said she just didn't feel like it. Q: Did she tell you why? A: No. She told me why eventually, once we were back together a year or so later, but -- Q: What did she say then? A: She was having beefs with her -- I guess her boyfriend, and whenever she talked to me I was short, and she just said she just didn't feel like flying to New York and -- she just didn't feel like flying to New York. That was it. Q: Who was her boyfriend then? A: I believe it was Brett. Q: Brett. A: Yeah. Q: Did you have a healthy relationship with her from the moment the two of you decided to split up in early 1992 until this point in Thanksgiving time? A: Healthy, I would say -- I went through a tough time. I didn't want to split up. So for me it wasn't healthy for me. Q: But initially you didn't want to split up, but then eventually you reckoned with it. Right? A: When she told me that she was crazy about another guy, there was no reason for me to try to stay in it. Q: Now, when was that, that conversation? A: That was the night I believe -- we keep getting the Mother's Day -- but it was roughly Mother's Day or the day after -- I believe it was the day after Mother's Day in '92. I was at the Browns' house, and Nicole showed up real late from Mexico. Q: Who did she say she was crazy about? A: Joseph. Q: Joseph. So you said on your video that you and Nicole had lunch on January 6, 1992, where Nicole told you that she wanted to split up. A: Yes. Q: Okay. And from that point on until this conversation on Mother's Day of 1992 you were of the frame of mind of wanting to put the relationship back together. Right? A: Well, you know, I mean I -- yes, I was thrown off -- basically, yes. It was one incident l that may have changed. Q: What was that incident? A: The Keith Zlomsowitzh. Q: That was before Mother's Day '92? A: Yes. Q: And was that shortly before? A: A few weeks, I would say. Q: After the Keith Zlomsowitzh incident, did you still want to put the relationship back on track? A: It's hard to say. I just know when she told me she met this guy she was crazy about, but she didn't know that -- it was that day in my mind I moved on. Q: Emotionally. Right? A: Yes. Q: And as of Mother's Day of '92, you had not yet met Paula. Right? A: Correct. Q: The Zlomsowitzh incident, was that the first major setback in your plans to try to win her over again? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, he didn't say he had plans to win her over. He just said -- BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Or your desire to reconcile with her. Was the Zlomsowitzh incident like the first major setback for you? A: No. When she moved out was a major setback for me. Q: Well, I understand, but you were trying to pursue her and get the relationship back on track. A: I don't know. It's hard to say. I just know that I accepted it was over when she came and spoke to me about Keith. I -- at that point in time I emotionally left and -- MR. ROBERT BAKER: Keith or Brett? MR. PETROCELLI: Not Brett. THE WITNESS: Joseph MR. ROBERT BAKER: We're all -- THE WITNESS: At that point I moved on. I had started -- BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Okay. A: I was ready to find somebody. Q: The two of you have cordial and positive relations between January 6, 1992 and the Mother's Day of '92 incident? A: Yes. Q: And continued again through the rest of that year? A: Yes. Q: Then Thanksgiving things went downhill? A: Well, I can't say it went downhill, no. I just say at that point of Thanksgiving, lawyers got involved for me to get the kids for Christmas, and we actually had a very, very good three or four time -- days at Christmas, a real good time. Q: Did you communicate with her between Thanksgiving and Christmas 1992? A: Very little, almost -- if it -- if I communicated with her, it had to do with arranging for the kids with -- you know, after the lawyers had got involved, which day the kids would come back, who would bring them back, because she wasn't coming back. Q: Were you romantically involved with Nicole at all during the year 1992? A: We had one night -- we had a couple of nights. One night she came to my house, and then one night after we had gone to Mezzaluna -- MR. ROBERT BAKER: The answer to that is yes or no. THE WITNESS: Yes. I'm sorry. Yes. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: How many? A: I'm not sure of this, but -- I mean kissing and stuff, I would say twice. Q: Were any of them after the Mother's Day of '92? A: No. No. Q: Both before? A: Yes. Q: Were they both before the Zlomsowitzh incident? A: Yes. Yes. Q: So between January and the Zlomsowitzh incident of '92 -- A: Yes. Q: -- is when you had relations with Nicole in '92? A: Yes. Q: And thereafter for the remainder of that year did not. Right? A: Correct. Q: And when for the first time did you have relations with her in 1993? A: I would say beginning of April she showed up at my house one night. Q: Okay, I'll get back to that. In April of 1993. Right? A: Yes. Q: Okay. Now, she spent some time with you in Christmas, and it went well, you said. Right? A: Yes. Q: That's Christmas of '92. That's in New York? A: Yes. Q: And you were with Paula then. Right? A: Yes. Q: Was Paula with you and Nicole at the same time? A: No. No. Q: Was Paula part of the four days that you spent with Nicole? A: No. Q: Okay. Was there any friction be tween Paula and you over that? A: A little bit. Q: Now, had you made any plans to marry Paula? A: No. Q: Did you ever propose to her? A: No. Q: You and she ever discuss marriage? A: Marriage, no. Q: Getting engaged? A: No. Q: Having a family, living together? A: Kids, yes. Q: And you discussed this in the year 1992 and up through some point in '93, I take it? A: I don't know if it ever came up in '92 or '93. I just -- I'm sorry. Ask the question again. Q: When did it come up? A: It didn't -- it was never a plan. You know, Paula is a -- as she stated, Paula's always wanted a family. She wanted the white picket fence. Q: She wanted to get married to you and have a family. Right? A: She never told me she wanted to get married to me. Q: Well. she wanted a family with you. Right? A: She never told me that, ever. She always just said that her dream was always this house with the white picket fence and kids. Q: But you understood that she would have liked to have that with you. Right? A: Well, the longer we were together, I would have assumed that eventually I was -- yeah. Yeah. Q: Are you saying the two of you never talked about that? A: Never talked about that no. Q: Never once talked about having kids together? A: Yes, we talked about having kids and filling houses up with kids, yes. Q: Did you -- A: But it was -- Q: Go ahead. A: It was at an affair that we talked about that. Q: It was at an affair. A: Yes. Q: Was that the evening of June 11? A: Yes. Q: 1994. Right? A: Yes. Q: Before that evening had you ever spoken to Paula about that? A: Us having kids? Q: Yeah. A: I don't really think so. Paula just wants to have kids. She wants to have a simple life and kids and house and family. Q: When Nicole showed up on your doorstep in March of 1993 what was the state of your relationship with Paula? A: Great. Q: You had a monogamous relationship with her? A: Yes. Q: And were the two of you living together at anytime? A: No. Q: Did she stay with you often? A: If she visited me in New York for a few days -- she has a very active career, so she was traveling as much as I was. Q: Well, from mid-March of -- well, when Nicole came to see you in March of '93, what was the reason she told you she wanted to get back together? A: I'm sorry? Q: When Nicole came to see you in mid-March of '93. A: After she saw me Q: When she came to see you to talk to you A: Okay. Q: -- what was the reason that she said that she wanted to get back together? A: She told me, you know, "I love you. I never said I didn't love you. I needed to do the things that I did this year." She didn't like her life. She didn't like the people she was hanging around with. She -- quote, "All the guys are just trying to get in your pants. All the girls I run around with, they're just looking for somebody with money to marry. Everybody's doing drugs, and I said to myself, I had a good life, I had a good family, and I want to come home." She went on to discuss that evidently she had been going to some therapy, and they had taught her something, and she asked me if I had read a letter that the kids had gave me, which I hadn't, and we were -- it was curious, too, because she says in the letter she wishes we were taking a walk, and I was taking a walk with her at the time. Q: Why hadn't you read that letter the kids gave you? A: Because they just walked in with it and handed it to me, and then I went looking for where they went, and then I noticed Nicole was parked across my driveway, and I -- Q: Did she tell you that she regretted the decision to split up with you.? A: No, she said she didn't regret that. She needed the time that she had. Q: Did she talk to you at all about abuse by you? A: No. Q: Did that come up at all in this conversation? A: I don't recall that coming up at all. Q: What about infidelity? A: In this conversation her sole purpose was to get back with me. Q: What did -- By the way, what people did she say she did not like? A: She didn't say. She said a -- I didn't know who her friends were. You know, I knew Cora, but all these other people who we see now, I didn't know who these people were. -- Q: Who do you mean by "these other people," Mr. Simpson? A: The Keiths, the Cicis, these people -- I don't know these people. Q: Cici was not someone who was in your and Nicole's life before you split up? A: No. Q: Was Cora? A: Cora, yes. Q: She was. Right? A: Yes. Q: But not Cici. Right? A: Not Cici. Q: And not Faye Resnick? A: Oh, no, not Faye Resnick. Q: What about Chris Kardashian and Chris Jenner? A: We knew Chris Kardashian -- I know Chris -- they were friends because of Bob and I were friends. They never did anything outside of Bob and I Nicole wasn't a big fan of all the fingernails and hair and clothes thing, and that -- Chris was -- that was Chris' thing. Q: What about the Schulmans? Were they part of your circle of friends before you and Nicole split up? A: At one point. Then Nicole had a falling-out with the Schulmans, and I believe by the time we split up Nicole hadn't spoken a word to Linda in a few years, even though I would see them from time to time. Q: And what about the LeBarons? A: You know, I don't -- we saw them maybe once a year. Q: Okay. When you and Nicole split up in '92, who was in your circle of friends, your closest friends? A: I would say for Nicole it was Cora. I don't think she saw much of Suzie Kehoe, who has been her closest friend most of the years we were together up to that time, The Schwartzes -- Q: Alan Schwartz? A: Yeah. And Pam Schwartz. And then Nicole's life was more geared around the kids, you know. Q: Those are the main people, though? A: Yes, I would say for the main people Q: When you took vacations, you took vacations with these people A: We had in the past, but -- yeah, we had in the past. Q: Okay. What did you tell Nicole -- A: Not Cora. We hadn't taken vacations with Cora, no. Q: Not Cora Now, what did you tell Nicole in March of '93 when she said she wanted to go back? A: I told her I was in a relationship and -- but essentially I felt that I had loved her and I always would love her, but I was in a relationship, and that I had suggested -- I was big on us doing something together as a family once a week, and we had -- since I had been back we hadn't done that, and I said, "But I do believe we should at least once a week do something together with the kids." Q: And did she accept that? A: She had no choice. Q: And did you carry out on that plan? A: Well, what happened MR. ROBERT BAKER: That's a yes or no. THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. Yes. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: What happened? A: What do you mean? Q: You said, "Well, what happened" A: Well, yes, we did carry out on that plan, but Nicole didn't accept that plan, and Nicole just started showing up everywhere. Q: Against your wishes, you mean? A: Well, when you say "against wishes," I mean Q: Was it bothering you? A: To an extent, yes, but not -- I mean, it wasn't unpleasant, but it got complicated. Q: How? A: Because I'd be places and be meeting Paula places, or Paula would come to a golf course and was gonna meet me for drinks or something, and Nicole would show up before Paula showed up. Q: Uninvited? A: Well, she was going to the driving range. Q: It was your sense that she was going there because you were there? A: She told me that. She said if we got back together -- and I'm crazy about golf -- she wanted to learn how to play golf, so she started taking golf lessons. Q: But are you saying it was a coincidence that she showed up at these places when you were there, or she was trying to meet up with you there? MR. ROBERT BAKER: That calls for speculation. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: What was your understanding of what was happening? MR. ROBERT BAKER: How can he have an understanding unless she told him.? MR. PETROCELLI: Because he can observe human nature. THE WITNESS: Well, she knew what time I played golf, and when I was coming off -- coincidentally, when I was coming off the 18th green, Marshal would say, "Your wife." I said, "My wife? I don't have a wife. "Your ex-wife is on the driving range," and I'd go down. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did she show up at any other places where you were besides the golf course? A: My house. Q: Again, uninvited? A: Yes. But that was nothing because -- A: well. I can't say that was nothing. Quite often it was either the kids were at my house or she was coming by to drop something off for the kids or she was dropping the kids off, an then it got to be a little more than that. Q: When did that happen? A: After we went to Cabo. Q: How did it get to be a little more than that?. A: Well, she started coming late night. Q: Without your asking her to? A: Yes. Q: And while you had Paula there with you? A: No. Paula -- well, a few times. I just assume that when she didn't see Paula's car, she would ring the bell, but if she saw Paula's car, she -- I mean, you know, it depends if she knew I was home or what. Q: Did she have a key? A: At that time, no. Q: Is this the Ashford bell? A: Yes. Q: You went to Cabo with her in April of '93? A: Yes. Q: And the two of you went as a couple? A: Yes. Q: Who did you go with? A: Just her and I. Q: And you were romantically involved during that trip? A: In that trip, yes. Q: Yeah. And did your plans for the future change during that trip? A: I hadn't made up my mind one way or the other. Q: You were still kind of on this once-a-week family event? A: Well, yeah, that was still what I wanted it to be, but at this time that wasn't what was happening. Q: Okay. And after Cabo did Nicole start showing up more and more often? A: Yes. Q: Okay. And did she at some point show up in Mexico? A: Yes. Q: When was that? After the Cabo trip? A: Yes. That was in May. Q: And who did you go with to Cabo -- to Mexico with? A: Allen and Gail Austin, Craig and Melissa Baumgarten, I believe Hos -- Bob Hoskins went with us, and Cory Wolman. Q: Where did she stay? A: At a friend's house. Q: In Cabo? A: Yes. Q: And Nicole showed up at this house? A: Well, she called. When I called to leave a number where I would be, she said, "We're coming." I said, "What do you mean "we're coming'?" Q: Who's "we"? A: And she said her and her friend and the kids -- And I said, "Well, where you staying?" She said a friend's ex husband had a co-op, which I've read now is a villa, but that's where they were staying. Q: This friend was Faye Resnick? A: Yes. Q: So she showed up with Faye Resnick? A: Yes. Q: And Justin and Sydney? A: Yes. Q: And Faye's child? A: Yes. Yes. Q: What's her name? A: I can't recall her name right now. Q: Francesca? A: Francesca. Q: And did you and Nicole see each other during this trip? A: Yes. I would -- after I would after golf I'd drive into town and yes. The answer's yes. Q: When she said she wanted to come down, did you resist that at all? A: She didn't say she wanted to come down. They said they were going down. They were going to stay Q: Did you try to talk her out of it? A: No. Q: Okay. And after Cabo you came back, and she started showing up a lot at your house. Any other places, too? A: No. After Cabo I came back and MR. ROBERT BAKER: Is this his Cabo of May or Cabo of April? Is this the second Cabo trip? MR. PETROCELLI: Good question, MR. Baker. I think this is after the MR. ROBERT BAKER: I'm so overwhelmed MR. KELLY: There's a first for everything, Bob. MR. ROBERT BAKER: I'm so overwhelmed, I can't BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: This is the first Cabo trip, in April of '93. A: Okay, the first Cabo trip. Q: You said that from that point on she started coming over unannounced to your house quite a bit? A: Yeah, more regularly. Q: More regularly. A: Yeah. Q: And did she show up at any other places during that time period other than the golf course? A: Show up? Q: Yeah. A: She came to my office a few times. Q: Were you telling her not to do these things? A: No. Q: In other words, you never said, "Look, Nicole, you're coming around too often. Please don't do this"? A: No. No. Q: So it was not bothering you at all. Right? A: It was uncomfortable, but, no, I like my kids, and I have always liked Nicole. Q: So even though it was uncomfortable, you didn't tell her you were uncomfortable about it. A: No. Q: Okay. A: No. Q: And at some point you then decided to have this reconciliation with her. Right? A: Yes. Q: And that occurred after the second Cabo trip, in May of '93? A: Actually during that second Cabo trip. Actually it was during the Cabo trip that I made up my mind that I would give it a shot. Q: Was there anything in particular that caused you to make that decision? A: I really -- After my friends left, Nicole and the kids -- Justin kept saying -- Sydney and Justin, "Come on, stay, dad, stay," and I stayed and I just really enjoyed myself with my fam ily. Q: Was Faye still there? A: Yeah. Q: So during that trip you and she made the agreement that you've previously testified about. Right? A: Yeah. I think -- I came to the conclusion then -- I don't know if I worded it to her then. I may have right after I came back, but it was at that point in my mind that I said I was gonna give this a shot. And your relationship with Paula was good at that time? A: Yes. Q: Not on the way down? A: I think in the previous month, because Paula came by and I know Nicole was there -- that's when she met Nicole. And I didn't even know Nicole was there. I was upstairs -- and then I would say, "Oh, Paula, I was having dinner with Nicole and the kids," and it became some friction, but the relationship was still good, but it was friction. It was some friction. Q: Over Nicole? A: Yeah, I think over -- I can't recall. It just seemed that sometimes there was a couple of conflicts time-wise, where Paula wanted to do something but I had told the kids I'd do something, and then Nicole would end up with me and the kids doing something. Q: It's fair to say that the conflicts that you had with Paula during this time period stemmed from her fear that you might get back together with Nicole? A: Well, you'd have to ask her that, but I think Q: You and she discussed that. Right? A: I think it had to do with -- I didn't -- I don't think I ever discussed with her about getting back with Nicole until after I made up my mind, and then I discussed it with her. Then I yeah, we talked about it. Q: Before that time, though, you and Paula had discussions where she was unhappy about Nicole being in your life. Is that a fair statement? A: I can't -- I don't recall specifically having a conversation about Nicole being in my life. I do know that it was uncomfortable, and Paula wasn't happy when Nicole was coming around a lot. Q: Okay. How did Paula take it when you told her? A: You know, she -- you know, Paula's got a lot of pride. I'm sure she was hurt. She didn't show that hurt at that time. She was very supportive of me at -- verbally about getting my family back together. I think she was very skeptical that it would work, but she was -- it was -- you know, it was painful to do it but I think she was supportive but hurt, and so was I Q: And where was this when you told her? A: I believe we were at her house, and I think we went to Le Dome for lunch, and it was right at that -- right around then. Q: May '93? A: May '93, I believe it was, yes. Q: Now, from that point on you saw her only one time? A: I think I saw her twice. Q: Twice? A: Yeah. I think I ran into her one other time, yeah. Q: Until you got back together with her in A: Yeah. Yeah. Q: -- May of '94. Right? A: Yes. Q: So you only saw her twice in that ensuing year. Correct? A: Yes. Q: And not romantically involved with her at all. A: No. Q: Okay. And didn't speak to her on the phone. A: I may have spoke to her a few times on the phone, because I know a few times I would call Cathy and Paula would be on the phone. I know a few times I would run into someone who lived in Panama City, and I'd call her mother, and I believe on one of of those occasions she was there or was coming the next day, and I called the next day to talk to her, but if it was three or four times in that year, it would have been the most. Paula called, I know, the day Marcus was getting married. You know -- Q: She write to you? A: No. Q: And you to her? A: No. Q: When you were in New York during the August football season, 1993, did you see Paula? A: No. Q: Why did -- Did Paula tell you why she was skeptical that your reconciliation would work? A: I don't know. I don't think she explained it. I think it was more of an attitude than she said it, but I was skeptical, so it was MR. ROBERT BAKER: He didn't ask you if you were skeptical. THE WITNESS: Okay. No, she didn't -- I can't recall any specific thing. I think it was just more an attitude. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did you decide to get back together with Nicole essentially for the kids? A: I mean that would be the easy thing, but don't think so. I think -- I didn't know how I felt about Nicole. I truly didn't know how I felt about Nicole. I knew that when we split, I was in love with her, and I knew I would have never left her at that point in our relationship, and I was -- you know, I had to try to understand how I felt, and the kids obviously was in the mix, but I think it was about myself first. Q: Now, over the next year you saw Nicole on a monogamous basis. Right? A: Yes. Q: And then split up with her the day after Mother's Day of 1994. Is that right; MR. ROBERT BAKER: We've been through all of this ad nauseum. THE WITNESS: No, let me see. I got to back up here a little bit. For the next year I saw Nicole. We didn't date other people. I never asked her what she did. She never asked me what I did. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Okay. A: it was -- we were going. We were working on getting our relationship back together. Q: What I want to know is: During that next year from May of '93 to May of '94, how many times did you break apart, split up, call it off and then get back together again? A: There were two occasions that I was dead set on ending it, but it never had happened. Q: And those two were when? A: The argument that's now the infamous 911 call. Q: October 25, '93? A: Yeah. And there was one other occasion. I believe there was one other occasion. Q: When was that? A: It was early on. It was early on. It was in '93. Q: Early in the reconciliation period. Right? A: Well, relatively early. It was in '93. I know that. Q: What happened? A: I -- something was in the National Enquirer, and then I was out with Nicole and I believe Faye and Christian, and it was all in the same kind of period of time. They were comparing notes about maybe Joseph or some thing, and I just -- I was, you know, I was kind of missing Paula, and I just didn't feel -- I wasn't -- I didn't feel I was in love with Nicole, and I just didn't like what was going on. Q: Was this at the California Sushi? A: That was the dinner that they were discussing this guy Joseph. I believe it was Joseph. I may be wrong. I guess whatever the guy they were discussing, they both had had this guy, and I didn't know what she was accustomed to hanging around, but I was in shock that in front of me they would be having this conversation. Q: Did you start arguing with her at the table? A: No. I said I left. I left. I didn't argue at the table at all. Q: Was it a table? A: I believe we left the sushi bar and went to a table. yes. Q: And no argument with her? You got up and left? A: I got up and said, "I can't believe" I -- "I don't know who the hell you think I am." I either asked Chris to pay the bill or gave him some money, and I walked out. Q: That's all that happened, from your account of that. Is that right? A: Inside. They came out and was trying to talk me into, you know, coming back in and stuff, but I was leaving. Q: Did you have any argument with her outside? A: About coming back in, and I said I wasn't coming. I said, "I can't believe" -- "Who the hell do you think I am?" You know, "You guys going to be talking about this. I don't know what your other boyfriends did, but, you know, you got me confused with somebody." Q: Were you saying that in a loud, angry voice outside? A: I don't know I'm loud all the time, man, so when you tell me "a loud, angry voice," I think it's the way I talk normally. Q: Did you observe whether other people were hearing what you were saying? A: I don't believe so. No. There was no crowd around. It was just the four of us. I think a police car drove by at one point. Q: Were you drinking that evening? A: Yes. Q: Were you drunk? A: No. Q: Now, what upset you at the table? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Other than what he just told you about? BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Well, you said something they were talking about Joseph A: I think it was Joseph MR. ROBERT BAKER: We just went through all this. THE WITNESS: Some guy they both had screwed. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Why would her talking about Joseph upset you? A: Well, I think if your wife and a girlfriend was talking about some guy that both of them screwed, you'd get up and leave. If you don't -- Q: Well, were they talking about having sex with Joseph? A: Whatever the guy was. I believe it was Joseph. They both had screwed this guy, and they were talking about sex with this guy. Q: Well, that's what I'm asking you. Did they just mention the name Joseph, or were they talking about sex with Joseph? A: They were talking about sex with a guy. I'm assuming it was Joseph. I don't have any clear recollection it was Joseph, but it was a guy that they both had had, and when they were kind of comparing notes about it -- Q: In your presence? A: -- I was in shock. Q: When Nicole and Faye were doing this. Right? A: Yes. Q: Or were they doing it just talking to one another, not to you and Christian? A: The four of us were sitting at a table, the four of us, and this was a conversation that was going on, and I looked at Christian and he kind of did something and -- Q: Did you use profanity at Nicole in the restaurant before you got up? A: No. No. I don't think I said any thing except -- well, I may have said, you know, "I don't know who in the hell you think I am, to have this conversation in front of me. I'm outta here." Q: Did you hear Faye Resnick's account of this incident in her book? A: I may have. I did read her book. Q: Yeah, I know you did. She said that you were screaming and yelling and using profanity at the table. Is that true? A: I don't believe so, no. Q: And she said you followed her down to the ladies' room A: No, that's wrong. Q: She said you barged into the ladies' room, kicking the door open, going inside? A: That's wrong. Q: Said you made a big scene in front of the patrons and the restaurant manager? A: That's -- she said that, yes. Q: Yeah. Is that true? A: No. Q: You drove home separately from Nicole that evening? Q: And did Nicole get driven to Rocking -- or Nicole was at Gretna Green then. Right? A: Yes. Q: And you went back to Rockingham. A: Yes. Q: Okay. Now, after that incident did you and Nicole not see each other for a while? A: No. We saw each other almost immediately. Q: Okay. In both those incidents A: Both those incidents? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Be 10-25. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: 10-25 and this California Sushi bar incident. Was it Nicole who, when those incidents occurred, came to you and sort of apologized and wanted to put things back together again? A: Most certainly at the sushi bar. I think it was a joint thing at the other one. I think I -- I think we both apologized to each other at the second one, and I was -- I may have apologized for being loud, but certainly not apologized for the content. Q: Loud at what incident? A: '93. Q: The sushi bar incident? A: No, no. The 911 incident. Q: You apologized for being loud. A: Yeah. You know, it was an argument. It was -- but I don't apologize for why I was arguing, you know. Q: Okay. Did you also have an incident involving Nicole at the Harley Davidson Cafe opening: in October of '93 in New York City? A: No. Q: You attended that with Christian Reichardt and Faye Resnick? A: Yes. Q: And shortly before that event an article appeared in the National Enquirer about you and Nicole? A: I don't believe so. Q: Any tabloid article come out around that period of time that upset you at all? A: Not that I'm aware of, no. Q: And did you have any disagreement with Nicole either that evening or the next evening at your place in New York? A: I think the next evening Nicole was upset that a friend of mine and Faye were on the phone late that night and Q: Was that Mark Packer? A: Mark Packer, yes. Q: Who was on the phone with Mark? You -- A: Faye. Q: She was upset with you? A: Yes, that's -- yes. And I kept saying, "She's your friend. Why are you pissed at me?" "Because he's your friend." "So what does that got to do with us?" Q: So did the two of you have a loud argument that evening? A: It wasn't loud, because she went to bed immediately. She said something. I said, "Why are you pissed at me about this? That's your friend you brought back here. I didn't bring her back here. She talks to who she wants to talk to." Q: Was that the extent of the evening? A: Yes. Q: Of the incident, I mean. A: Yeah. We were home, and she had just made -- warmed up some pasta for me and then -- Q: Now, you did attend the opening of the Harley-Davidson -- A: Yes. Q: -- Cafe. Right? A: Yes. Q: And you were at a table with Resnick, Christian and Nicole? A: I don't know if we ever got a table, but we may have at one point sat down. The place was like sardines, it was so packed. Q: And did you consume cocaine that evening? A: No. Q: Did you take cocaine in front of Nicole, Faye -- A: No. Q: -- or Christian? A: Absolutely not. Q: Did any of them take cocaine? A: I didn't observe anybody taking cocaine. Q: Okay. And what about at your apartment that evening or the next evening? Did you A: Absolutely not. Q: -- take cocaine there? A: Absolutely not. Q: Okay. Was there an incident in which you had a disagreement or a fight with Nicole at a restaurant called Toscana's? A: No. Q: Do you recall that incident as described in Faye Resnick's book? A: Yes. Q: Were you present there? A: Yes. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Present there when? THE WITNESS: The incident -- MR. PETROCELLI: At the incident. MR. ROBERT BAKER: The incident that she described? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah. Q: What's your recollection of the incident? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, he doesn't -- THE WITNESS: I don't think there was an incident. I saw her book. I was surprised at it. But you read the stuff. You see what everybody else there said. Jeez. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: So what she said about that is false? A: Yes. Q: Miss Resnick also wrote in her book and testified under oath that you called her on May 2 or May 3 of 1994 from Puerto Rico or from -- No. Withdrawn. Miss Resnick testified under oath that You called her on May 2 or May 3, had a telephone call with her. Do you recall that? A: No. Not particularly, no. Q: She said that in this call you were ranting and raving about Nicole having made a decision to leave you while you were in Puerto Rico. Do you recall discussing that with Faye Resnick? A: No. Q: And in this conversation you told Faye that you would kill Nicole. Do you recall saying that? A: Absolutely not. Q: Do you recall having any conversation with Faye Resnick about killing Nicole, even if you didn't mean it seriously A: None. Absolutely none, ever. Q: Did you ever discuss that with Christian Reichardt? A: Never. Q: Did you ever discuss Faye's account of that with Christian Reichardt? A: Account of what? Q: Account of that conversation that I just described to you. A: What conversation? There was never a conversation. So there was never a conversation. I don't -- I don't- MR. ROBERT BAKER: You have answered the question. THE WITNESS: No. I don't know. I don't know -- I've talked about a few things with Christian, but I don't recall that being any point thing. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did you and Faye have a conversation on the telephone around May 2 or May 3 when you were very angry about Nicole and told so to Faye? MR. ROBERT BAKER: This is '94? MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me. Did I say '93? MR. ROBERT BAKER: You didn't say any year. MR. PETROCELLI: '94. THE WITNESS: I don't know about angry. I was concerned about what the heck was going on with Nicole, which I know I had expressed to Faye, and I expressed to the Browns. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Are you saying you think you had a telephone conversation with Faye Resnick on this time that you expressed that to her as well? A: I'm pretty sure, if I spoke to Faye during this period of time, I would have expressed that, yes. Q: Now, this is before you made the decision to leave Nicole for the last time. Right? A: Well, when I came back from Puerto Rico, had made that decision, but Nicole and I had a conversation, and it went for another week. Q: Okay. Before you -- Well, why did it go another week, by the way' A: Because there was a suggestion to date or, you know, take Wednesdays and Saturdays and see how that worked, and so -- and I was -- that's why, basically. And Nicole was considering going to therapy but by the end of the week she just -- it just didn'twork. Q: Oh, she was considering it. A: Yeah, I told her that I thought she should try back to whoever she was going to before she came to ask me to come back in the relationship because I thought she was as healthy as I had seen her during that period of time, and I didn't feel that she was too healthy at this time. Q: The conversation that you just described where you asked her to go to therapy was the conversation on Mother's Day, 1994. Right? A: That conversation was an extension to when I first got back from Cabo. That conversation, it wasn't a suggestion. It was an either/or. Q: And the Mother's Day conversation. A: Yeah. Q: And as of the end of Mother's Day, the decision was she wasn't going to therapy, and that was the end of the relationship. A: Yeah, I think it was either Mother's Day or, once again, the day after Mother's Day. I don't recall which night it was. Q: Now, the prior conversation with Nicole the week before was where? A: At her house. Q: Okay. What was the day of that conversation? A: Whatever -- the day after I got back from Cabo. Q: From Puerto Rico? A: I mean from Puerto Rico, yes. Q: You got back for Christian Reichardt's party. Right? A: I got back because we had to shoot in L.A. Q: But you went to the party, in other words. A: Yes. Q: That party was on April 30, I believe. A: Yeah. Q: Okay. And had you had the conversation with Nicole that you just mentioned before that party? A: No. I think it was the next day. Q: Okay. And relate that conversation to Me. A: Nicole had some concern about why I wasn't loving, and my words to her was, "I couldn't" -- I didn't think I could do this. I didn't, know -- when I was in Puerto Rico. Nicole was like having a nervous breakdown. and I had no -- I couldn't understand why. I didn't understand what it was about, and I was explaining to her that, you know, "All of this all calling me, saying you're sorry. I went through weeks talking to you; I didn't know who was talking to from day to day, and I can't do this." Q: When Nicole said -- she was questioning you why- A: Why I wasn't loving her. Q: You mean at the party? A: You know, loving. I've always been a very affectionate person -- it was almost a culmination of some of the whole year. It was just that I just never fell back in love with her. Even though I felt I was in love with her a couple of times, I never really fell back in love with her, and I thought it would -- as I told you before, I thought before I went to Puerto Rico was the first time that I thought it would work, and while I was in Puerto Rico, I mean, Nicole -- her words were was she was having a nervous breakdown. Q: Did Nicole describe to you when you came back to Los Angeles what her problems were while you were in Puerto Rico? A: No. No. Whatever -- evidently there was -- something was going on. Q: Did she tell you that whatever it was, she was over it? A: Basically. She laid some of it off on Cora and some of it off on Faye. Q: What did she lay off on Cora? A: That Cora was -- something was going on with Cora and Ron Fishman; Ron had moved out, and Faye was messing with drugs. Q: So her preoccupation with their problems was causing her a lot of stress in her life? A: I don't know. Q: Is that what she was telling you.? A: That's what she told me, yes. Q: And did you find that a reasonable explanation- A: No. Q: -- for her behavior? A: No. Q: Why not? A: Why. Why should whatever was happening to these women affect the way her and I was with each other. Q: And you told her that A: Yes. Q: Now, during that week when you got back and went to Reichardt's party and the Mother's Day decision not to see her anymore, okay, you had conversations with Faye Resnick on the phone. Right?- A: Earlier in -- maybe, you know. I don't totally recall, but I knew I had spoken to Faye a few times because Faye -- yeah, I had spoke to Faye a few times, yes. Q: Apart from expressing to Faye your concerns over Nicole, did you ever express or vent any anger about Nicole? A: No, not any anger, not to the degree that you mentioned earlier, no. Q: Are you aware that Christian Reichardt told the LAPD or the District Attorney's Office, whoever interviewed him, that Faye told him you told Faye you were going to kill Nicole? A: I think I read that somewhere. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. It doesn't matter. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: You read that someplace? A: I'm sure I did. Q: Did you ever talk to Christian Reichardt about his conversation with Faye Resnick to that effect? A: No. Q: Did you know that he went on national television and said the same thing? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Well, do you know that he did so? Because my next question is going to be: Did you talk about it? MR. ROBERT BAKER: You just asked him if he talked about it, and it's irrelevant and- MR. PETROCELLI: I am trying to jog his recollection. MR. ROBERT BAKER: It's irrelevant, what he saw on television. MR. PETROCELLI: No, but it might refresh his recollection as to whether he talked with Reichardt about it. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Did you talk to Reichardt? You can answer that. THE WITNESS: No. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: No? A: No. Q: No. We have to do a tape change right here. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Why don't we do a lunch change? MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No. 1 of Volume VI. The time is approximately 12:05, and we are off the record. (At the hour of 12:05 p.m., a luncheon recess was taken, the deposition to resume at 1:05 p.m.) (At the hour of 1:24 p.m., the deposition of ORENTHAL JAMES Simpson was resumed at the same place, the same persons being present, with the exception of Fredric Goldman.) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. The time is approximately 1:24. This is the beginning of tape No. 2 of Volume VI. EXAMINATION (Resumed) BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Over the lunch break I refreshed my memory a bit on this Toscana incident, Mr. Simpson. Do you know a man named Alessandro? A: I met him, yes. Q: And did you see him at Toscana's the evening you were there with Nicole? A: Yes. Q: He walked into the restaurant and you spoke to him that evening? A: No. Q: Did he walk up to the table? A: No. Q: Did you have any words with him at all? A: No. Q: Did you threaten him? A: No. Q: Did you talk about him? A: Nicole did. Q: What did she say to you about him? A: I think they were talking about the whole table. Her and one of the other girls was talking about something he had done at one of her parties. Q: That's the best you can recall? A: Yeah. They were unhappy with him. He had done something at some affair Nicole had at her house, and Nicole was very unhappy with it. Q: And you had no conflict with him that evening? A: No. Q: Okay. Now, at the first or second session of this deposition you mentioned an incident involving Nicole in January of 1994. A: Yes. Q: What was that incident? A: Nicole -- they were leaving a bar, and I gather -- I'm only saying what Nicole told me -- at some point Faye was serving or something, and when Nicole was leaning over to ingest it, she ran into the car in front of her. Q: Oh, in the car Nicole was driving? A: Yes. Q: And Nicole leaned over to ingest some alcohol? A: No. Q: Was it drugs? A: Yes. Q: Cocaine? A: Yes. Q: And she smashed into the car? A: In front of her, yes. Q: And what car was Nicole driving? A: Her Ferrari. Q: And was the car damaged? A: Very bad. Q: How did you find out about this? A: Nicole called me. Q: That evening? A: I believe it was the next day. Within 24 hours we talked. I asked her how she was doing, and she started crying. She thought she was gonna get in trouble. Q: What happened to the car in front that it hit? A: I don't know. I don't know. Q: Did you take care of this situation for her? A: No. Her concern was they lied to the police, and she thought she'd get caught. Q: Oh, she switched seats with Faye? A: No. When they got out and the police came, Nicole thought her license was suspended, and she said she had been drinking, and Faye said she could handle it and Faye claimed she was driving, and Nicole thought that one of the people when they left would -- I guess the police was talking to other people when they drove off, when they left with the tow truck, and Nicole thought one of these people would say that she was driving. Q: Did that ever happen? A: I don't think so. Faye had some lawyer who evidently helped them out in these type of things, and Faye got this lawyer involved. Q: Did you have to pay for anything? A: No. Q: Who paid for the repair of the -- A: I don't know -- Q: -- car? A: -- Nicole's business. Probably her insurance. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Okay. You got to wait until he finishes the question. THE WITNESS: Okay. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Were you ever aware of any tires on Nicole's cars being slashed or cut? A: No. Q: Did you ever hear about that? A: No. Q: Do you know how much it cost on this property damage to the other car? A: The other car, no. I know Nicole told me hers was -- MR. ROBERT BAKER: He didn't ask you anything about Nicole's car. THE WITNESS: Okay. I don't know. I didn't get involved. Other than saying I would have dinner with the lawyer, I didn't get involved. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: And what about Nicole's car? How much was that? A: I believe she told me in the neighborhood of S20,000. Q: And the insurance company paid for it? A: I believe so. yes. Q: And the drugs were never disclosed to the A: police to your knowledge? A: To my knowledge. no. Q: Faye said she had been drinking? A: I don't know what she said, but Nicole talked constantly about how Faye was able to go through all the tests, and she said, "I could have never done that." Q: Now. did you have any concern about this incident after it was related to you? A: Yes. Q: And what was that? A: I was real upset with Nicole. She didn't want anybody to know, and I -- I was very upset with her. Q: What were you upset about? That she had taken cocaine? A: Just the whole thing. It just seemed as if things were happening that should not have been happening, and I was taking to her quite extensively during this period of time about drinking. Q: Did she in your estimation cut down on the drinking thereafter? MR. ROBERT BAKER: You mean -- MR. PETROCELLI: After this incident. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Okay. I know after, but for the whole period of time until the murder? MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah, until her murder. THE WITNESS: I don't think so, because I know it was a constant concern that I mentioned to the Browns, Lou and Judy, from time to time. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Even during your marriage, you mean? A: No. no. This is -- all of this is after, you know, after we had split. Q: And when -- when you got back together in, let's say, May of '93, Mother's Day of '93, thereabouts, did you start noticing this excessive drinking? A: Almost immediately. Q: Also drug use, too? A: No. Q: Did you ever see Nicole during that period of time, May of '93 till You broke up in the following year, use cocaine? A: No. Q: Did you know whether she was doing so other than this one incident in January of '94? A: Other than what she told me. Q: And what was she telling you in this regard? A: Well, the '93 October 911 call, that's essentially one of the major things that I was -- I had found out that things were going on, and that was essentially what I was yelling about. Q: But that wasn't about drug use by Nicole. A: Yes. Q: In what sense? A: In the sense that I was told that day about them all doing drugs at a place called the Monkey Bar. Q: Other than that October 25, '93 incident and the January car crash incident, did Nicole relate to you any other incidents of drug use by her? A: No. Q: And you witnessed firsthand excessive drinking by her? A: What I thought was, yes. Q: And you talked to her about it? A: Well, you know, I didn't -- I may have mentioned it to her -- I did mention it to her a few times, but I didn't want to be getting on her, so I talked to other people in hopes they would talk to her. Q: And the other people were Judy and Lou Brown? A: And Faye Resnick, for that matter. Q: When did you talk to the Browns about this? A: I mentioned it numerous times: "Watch how much she's drinking. Watch out the drinks that she takes." Q: And you mentioned it to them more than one occasion? A: Yes. Q: From May of '93 to May of '94? A: I can't say exactly May '93 to May of '94 -- Q: Well, that's the period of your reconciliation. A: Yeah. Within that time period. I don't know when it started or when it ended. I do know that in my last few conversations with Judy, it was the -- my major focus on that and who she was running around with. Q: Okay. Let me ask you -- well, first of all, what was their reaction to the expressions of your concern about Nicole's excessive drinking? A: Well, it was hard to have a reaction because -- you'd have to ask them what their reaction was. Q: In other words, did they agree with you? Did they say, "You're right, O.J., but I can't do anything about it," or did they disagree with you? What did they say? A: Well, because I kept saying, "Watch her when we go out." I mean, I remember at Lou's -- gave a party for Lou one night at a restaurant and I was saying, "Watch how much she drinks." Q: Okay. Now, you talked about some of the last conversations that you had with Judy. When did those occur? A: The last? Q: Yeah. A: Basically with the concern was when I was in Puerto Rico. Q: And again, the concern was you didn't know why Nicole was acting strangely. Right? A: Nicole said she felt she was having a nervous breakdown, and she told me that, and then Judy and I had conversations, and Judy had concerns also when I was speaking to Judy. Q: Did you consider coming back from Puerto Rico -- A: No. Q: -- to address the problem? A: No. Q: Why not? A: Because I was working, and I was under a contract, and Nicole's an adult. Q: Did you see if she could get some medical help? A: I asked her to. I kept telling her I wanted her to go to therapy, and I mentioned about her drinking. Q: Did she say that one of the things that was stressing her out was you? A: At that time, no. Q: Her relationship with you? A: At that time, no. Q: Later on she tell you that? A: No. Q: You said "At that time." That suggests to me that some other time she told you? A: Yes. When we split originally. Q: No, I am now talking about April '94 when you were in Puerto Rico and she is telling you she's having a nervous breakdown. A: Yeah, she was just -- I was just -- from day to day she was -- MR. ROBERT BAKER: There is no question. He is just telling you where his -- directing your attention to. MR. PETROCELLI: Exactly. THE WITNESS: Yeah. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: And my question to you is whether in any of the conversations then or thereafter about her problem, this nervous breakdown problem, that there was any concern expressed by her that you were the cause of this. A: No. Q: That it had something to do with you. A: No. She couldn't pinpoint what it was, she said. Q: You mentioned Cora, and you mentioned Faye and her concern with their problems. Does anything else come to mind? MR. ROBERT BAKER: "Anything else come to mind." Could you being more expansive? MR. PETROCELLI: Well, he understands what I mean. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, I -- No, don't answer that. That question is very overbroad. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: What I am trying to get you to tell me as expansively as possible is what she told you was the cause, other than her concern over Cora and Faye, which you yourself indicated shouldn't have led to this kind of problem. A: The problem was she couldn't say. She didn't know. And when I would say, "What's wrong," she couldn't say. "I don't know," is what she'd say. Q: Did you say, "Is it me?" A: Numerous times. I was the easiest problem she had, because if she didn't want to be with me, I didn't want to be with her, you know, so I wasn't a major problem for her. Q: But she said it was not you. A: She didn't say that. She said, "It's just everything." She didn't know. And that's when I constantly tried to get her to go to therapy again. Q: She didn't know. So as far as you know, then, it might have concerned you, but she didn't know. Right? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: In other words, she didn't rule out the possibility that it concerned you. Is that right? MR. ROBERT BAKER: That's -- THE WITNESS: She didn't know, so I don't know what she ruled in or out. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Okay. She didn't know. Did you suggest any modification in your relationship with her in order to alleviate the problem? This is in Puerto Rico. A: No. Q: Okay. Now going back to Judy, you last spoke to Judy when? A: I don't know. Q: Not at the recital. Beforehand. A: I don't know. Beginning of May, I would say. Q: And you said the major focus was on Nicole's problems? A: Yeah. Nicole and that we were going our separate ways and Nicole. What -- I thought she needed to get back to therapy and stop drinking and stop running around with who she was running around with. Q: And what did Judy say to you? A: Judy didn't like who she was running around with either. Q: You mean girlfriends? A: Yeah. Q: Faye Resnick? A: Ask Judy. Q: Who did you mean? A: I just meant everything. I didn't know who she was running around with. I didn't know really who she was running around with, so I didn't know. I just knew the whole scene wasn't a positive scene, and from what I can gather, it was the same scene that she was in when she came back to me and told me she hated what was going on in her life. So from what I was -- gathered. she was going to the same places and hanging around the same people. Q: Now, did Judy Brown tell you that she agreed or disagreed with what you were saying? A: She agreed something was wrong because she had some -- some -- she couldn't get anything out of Nicole. I guess -- yeah, Judy was concerned. You got to ask Judy. Judy was concerned. Q: Did Judy tell you that she also was trying to find out from Nicole what the problem was? A: She said she wouldn't talk. I think Nicole hung up on her at one time, and Judy at one point while I was in Puerto Rico, the last week I was in Puerto Rico, made a comment to the effect that she had spoken to Nicole one day, and the next day Nicole was attributing things to Judy that Judy hadn't said the day before. Something in that vein. Q: Did there come a time when you perceived that Nicole stopped acting in this sort of irrational way you're describing? A: You have to ask that again. I don't quite understand it. Q: From the time that you first started experiencing these problems with her behavior while I you were in Puerto Rico -- A: Yeah. Q: -- beginning with that time, did there come a time when you saw that there had been improvement and that she had stopped exhibiting these problems? A: From the time I got home, everything seemed -- even before I came home, she called. I mean, we talked and she apologized for the way she was acting. She picked me up at the airport. She seemed totally normal. The following Sunday, which was the night before Mother's Day, she in front of me almost had a nervous breakdown. I mean, she was, "Look at me,' she was saying, and that was when I basically said, "This is not gonna work." Q: And from that point on did you observe that her behavior, whether it was- A: I didn't see -- Q: -- whether it was problematic -- A: I saw her that week at dinner once or twice. I talked to her, because now we weren't together, so I could talk to her more fully about it, and I talked to her a lot about it the following week when she called me when she had double pneumonia, and I used that as a, "See? See, I told you so. Whatever you're doing, you got to stop doing." Q: And from that point on she seemed okay to you? A: I didn't hardly -- I didn't see her much from that point on. Until she called me in -- later in the month yelling at me, she seemed like Nicole, the times that I saw her. Q: Seemed like she -- in other words, she was okay. A: Yeah. We -- we -- yeah, she was okay, yeah. Q: Now, tell me about this incident and you mentioned it on your videotape, when Nicole called you and was very upset with you because Faye Resnick was going to an affair. What was the affair? A: It was going to be the Cedars Child -- you know, it was a big affair that they have at Cedars Hospital, raise money for the birth defects. I was one of the, you know, founders of it, and I was the guy who was in charge of getting all athletes at its inception, and we may have been going into the eighth, ninth, tenth year, and so that was the affair. Q: And describe the argument you had with Nicole. A: It wasn't really an argument. She called me and just started yelling at me. Q: For no reason? A: I felt for no reason. Q: What did she say? A: To stay away from her F-ing friends. And I said, "What are you talking about?" And she said, "You invited Faye and Christian to this thing, and I don't want you" -- "I don't want you hanging around my friends." And I said, "I didn't invite Faye anywhere. Faye invited herself." And she says, "But I don't want you hanging around my friends." And I think I said to her, "What are you talking about? I never told you who to hang around with. You" -- and I may have made -- I don't know what I said. But in any event, she hung up, and then I called Christian and Faye. Q: Did you go to the event? A: I was in jail. Q: Oh, this was an event scheduled for later in June? A: Yeah. Yeah. Q: Had you made plans with Christian and Faye? A: I had invited -- See, the previous year -- MR. ROBERT BAKER: Go ahead. You know. THE WITNESS: I had made plans with Christian, and Faye wanted to know why she wasn't invited and gave a good reason why she wanted to go, and I said, "Well, sure, I don't have a problem with it." BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: What was the reason? A: That she -- "We don't take sides. We love you. We love Nicole. I want to get to know Paula. I want to get to know whoever Nicole goes out with. When our friends split up, we don't take sides, which has always been my attitude." That is what she said to me. Q: And you had no problem with that. Right? A: No. I mean, I didn't invite her or Cora because I was going to be with Paula. Q: So the way you left it then -- A: Was fine. Q: -- is fine. You were going to go with Paula, Christian and Faye, and was Cora going with Ron Fishman? A: No. Ron and his son was going, and I had to fill up my table. It was a table of 12. Q: But Nicole wasn't included. Right? A: Nicole and I wasn't dating. No, I was dating Paula. Q: What is the date of this conversation with Nicole? A: I don't know. It was after the 22nd but I believe before the end of the month. So it's sometime -- sometime in the latter part of May. Q: Is this the last argument you had with her? A: I believe it was, yeah. Yeah, it was the last -- other than tickets and stuff, it was the last, yeah. Q: Did you call her back? A: I don't think it was -- I tried to call her back, but she had her phone off the hook, and I left a message for her. Q: Where? A: The next day. Q: Oh, on her machine? A: Yes. Q: What was your message? A: Told her I thought she was totally out of line. I told her that we had -- I said, "We split up. We went our separate ways. I was there for you when you were sick. I thought everything was going good. You are totally out of line, what you did. You need to talk to your friend Faye." And I said, "You need to look at your own actions when you and I were split before. You went a little further than just invited my friends out," and that was it. Q: You mean she had romantic relations with your friends. A: Yes. Q: Did she ever respond to that message, Mr. Simpson? A: No. Q: Okay. Now, you testified earlier on in the deposition that you had a dinner with her and Sydney and Justin at Bundy around the 24th of May. A: Yeah. Yeah. Q: Do you recall that? A: Yes. Q: Was this argument with Nicole before or after that dinner? A: After. Q: It was after. A: Yes. Q: Okay. Now, after you took care of Nicole when she had was it double pneumonia? A: Yeah. Q: Was there some still hope in your mind that maybe things would work out? A: No. Q: You were just doing it to get her better. Right? A: We -- yeah. Yeah. Q: Weren't you delivering roses to the house? A: On her birthday I might have, but I don't think so. I think I brought her a cake and a cigarette lighter. Q: Did you have any flowers sent to the house? A: I did on the -- I may have on the 27th, so it would have been a little after the -- I may have -- oh, no. I may have on the 24th or the 27th. I may have. Q: For what purpose? A: That was what I and her always -- No, I didn't. I didn't. That would have been the next month I was gonna do that, so I don't think I did. Q: What was the purpose that you -- A: Unless Sydney was graduating or something, yeah. Q: What was the purpose for which you would exchange flowers that time of year? A: That's when we first met, and it would have been June 27. I brought flowers to her when she had a pneumonia. I know that. Q: Once? A: I believe so, but . . . You know. Q: Was there any expression by you to her that you wanted to get back together? A: No. The minute I started dating Paula, that was that. Q: When you saw her at the airport that night. A: Yeah. Q: Did you give Nicole any gifts during the month of May other than the cigarette lighter and the bracelet? A: No. Q: You brought her no gifts? A: No. Q: When Nicole returned the bracelet, she also returned some earrings? A: No. I asked for the earrings. Q: Why did you ask for them back? A: Because she kept the check. Q: What check? A: The insurance check. Q: Why was there an insurance check? A: Because she somehow lost these earrings that I had made for her before, and when the insurance check came, I signed it, and we sent it to her, and I -- we were replacing the earrings, and evidently when the guy delivered the earrings to her, she never gave him the money; and for some reason my office, when the guy billed my office, they sent a check, so she couldn't keep the earrings and the check. Q: How much was the check? A: I think the check was a little less than what the earrings cost, so the check may have been $7,500, $8,000. Q: How did you get the earrings back? A: I asked for them. Q: And did you pick them up in person? A: We were discussing some things at her house, and it was when she brought up the fact that she didn't think I bought these -- this bracelet for her and -- Q: How did she figure that out? A: Because it didn't go with anything I've ever bought her, and it was kind of out of the blue. And during that conversation she mentioned how she's gotten used to the TV in the bedroom; she wasn't a big person on that, and wanted to know could she keep the TV I had bought for me in the bedroom that had the earphones on it, because I watch TV throughout the night, and a few other items, and I said, "Since we're making up, you owe me X amount of dollars." And she didn't have it and she gave me the earrings. She said, "Well, you have to take the earrings because I don't have the money." Q: Do you know why she didn't have the money? A: I don't know. I know she was having some -- at that particular time she had loaned some family -- from what she said, she had loaned some family members some money, and -- I don't know. Outside of that, I don't know. Q: How much had she loaned? A: I don't know. I thought she said 10,000 or something to -- Q: To whom? A: I believe she said Lou. Q: So, she said she was short on money? A: She didn't say that. She was just -- I know money was a -- came up in the conversation because she didn't have the money to pay me, to give me the money back for the check. Q: Okay. Now, did she give you the earrings back the same time she gave you the bracelet back? A: Yes. Q: And was that on this 24th when you were over there for dinner? A: Yeah. I believe it may have been earlier than that. It may have been the 2 -- it may have been on the 22nd. I believe it was like on -- whenever I got -- I think it was -- I'm not a hundred percent sure of this, but I think it was like on the 22nd. I think it was the night of the picnic at my house. But it could have been a day after or something, because I don't believe -- Q: Was she upset with you when she returned the bracelet and the earrings? A: No. She was -- she -- It had bothered her because she really, really loved the earrings, so that bothered her, but I was gonna give them back to her anyway, so... Q: you were planning to give them back? A: Yes. Q: At what point? A: The next month when our anniversary had come. Q: Why didn't you let her keep them at the time? A: Well, because then I wouldn't have to buy her anything at our anniversary. Q: Did you buy her a present for your anniversary in 1992 when you were split up in June and you had already met Paula? A: I think I gave her -- I sent her flowers for sure, and I think what -- I'm sure I sent her something. Not what -- something, maybe a Swiss Army watch or something. I'm not a -- but I know I sent her something. I know that specifically. Q: Were you embarrassed or shamed at all about the breakup of your relationship again? A: Shamed and embarrassed? Q: Yeah. A: No. No. You know what it was, it was a relief, because I felt I was working too hard. Q: At the relationship? A: Yes. Yes. Q: So you felt no sense of public embarrassments? A: Not at all. Q: Humiliation? A: No. Q: Shame? A: No. That's why I think I was happy -- I was happy to move on. Q: And were you -- A: And I was proud of the fact that we seemed to be getting along despite it. You know, anyone who saw us together knows next two, three- - two weeks at least, almost three weeks, saw two people who really got along, and even though they had split, really got along. Q: Did you tell any of your close friends that you were going to break up with Nicole at or around the time that you did? A: No, but all of my close friends knew I had. Q: They did? A: Yeah. Q: After the fact, you mean. A: Yeah. Q: You mean you told them that you had broken up with Nicole. A: I told them it was -- yeah, because they saw Paula. Q: Did you tell them that you had left her or she had left you? A: That we split up, you know. Q: Did you tell them the circumstances? A: It was none of their business. Q: Did you tell them the reasons? A: I think some of my close friends knew already because I just -- Q: Who would they be? A: Allen Austin would have known because I'm sure I talked about it with Allen Austin. Q: Anyone else? A: I don't know. It's not something -- you know, my close friends are -- it's not something you talk about. You play golf, but on a golf course, you know, everybody talks about whatever they talk about. Q: Did you tell Cowlings this, too? A: you know, you got to understand, I didn't see a lot of A.C. but possibly. Cathy Randa, for sure. Arnelle for sure. but it was somewhat abrupt. MR. PHILLIP BAKER: OJ., you don't owe him an explanation. THE WITNESS: Okay. MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Just answer his questions. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: The breakup was abrupt. That's what you're saying. Right? A: Somewhat. Somewhat, yeah. Q: By the time of Nicole's death, did all of your close friends and family know that you had split up with her? A: Yes. Q: You had already told your mother and your sisters? A: I don't know if I specifically called them to say it. I don't know if I ever thought of that, but anybody around me, yes. Q: Did you know whether Nicole ever did see a therapist? A: Don't believe so. Q: She told you she wouldn't. Right? A: She didn't want to. She thought it was a waste of time. Q: Okay. Do you know if she saw a therapist named Jennifer Ameli? A: No. Q: Ameli. A: No. Q: Did you ever hear of her? A-m-e-l-i? A: Last night. Q: How did you hear about her last night? A: I think GERALDO. Somebody told me some girl was on GERALDO saying something. Q: Was that the first time you've heard that name? A: Yeah. Q: You ever go to Jennifer Ameli's office on any occasion? A: Not to see Jennifer Ameli, no. I wouldn't know where her office is. Q: Did you ever confront Nicole in late May or early June before her death in front of her therapist's office? A: I didn't know she had a therapist. Q: In front of an office building. A: No. Q: Did you ever confront her and another gentleman with her in her Ferrari in late May, early June? A: I never saw her with another gentleman in her Ferrari then. Q: Or any other vehicle. A: No, never. Q: Did you ever stop to talk to Nicole in late May, early June before her death while she was in her car? A: No. Q: Did you ever call her over while she was in her car? A: No. Q: Did you ever confront her in a parking lot anywhere? A: No. Q: Do you think this Jennifer Ameli's a fraud? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Do you have any knowledge of that? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. THE WITNESS: I don't know MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Okay. Was Nicole afraid of you? A: I don't believe so, no. Q: Did Nicole ever tell you that she was afraid of you? A: No. Q: Did Nicole ever tell you that she had fear of you? MR. ROBERT BAKER: What's the difference? Don't answer that. You answered the question already. MR. PETROCELLI: You know, it's not appropriate to instruct him just because I asked him a second question that may be similar or the same as the first question. MR. ROBERT BAKER: You know, I've never read "Petrocelli On Evidence" or "Deposition Objections." MR. PETROCELLI: Probably never will either, MR. Baker. MR. BREWER: Good book. MR. ROBERT BAKER: I'll bet it's the shortest book I could ever read, too. MR. PETROCELLI: It's only shorter than yours. MR. ROBERT BAKER: You sound like Marcia Clark. MR. PETROCELLI: Now, I'm not going to say anything about that. I don't want my comments to be misconstrued either way. Q: Anyway, she ever tell you that she was afraid of you.? A: No. Q: Did you ever discuss that subject with her? A: No. Q: Did she -- did you ever sense that she was afraid of you? A: No. Q: Did you ever sense that she felt terror as a result of -- A: No. Q: -- your conduct? A: No. Q: Not even in the 911 call on October 25 when you heard her voice? A: I didn't hear her voice. I didn't know she was on the phone with the police. Q: You heard it in court, though. Right? A: Yeah. Q: And did you sense terror in her voice? A: If I was on the other end of that line, it would have sounded that way to me, yes. Q: Did that surprise you when you heard that? A: In light of the fact that she left the room and came down with me -- to be in the room with me, yes, because I knew she wasn't afraid. Q: Why do you suppose she expressed terror in her voice if she wasn't afraid? A: You want me to speculate? Q: I want you to tell me what you think, Yes. MR. ROBERT BAKER: I think his state of mind is irrelevant relative to that issue. MR. PETROCELLI: I don't think so. Let the trial judge decide. Q: You may answer. MR. ROBERT BAKER: He will when you make the motion. Don't answer it. MR. PETROCELLI: What was my question? Q: I would like to know if you have any understanding as to why she expressed terror in that phone call MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer it. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: -- if you believe she didn't have any. MR. ROBERT BAKER: His opinions and asking him to speculate MR. PETROCELLI: He may have a current understanding that's not based on speculation. It's based on some information. MR. ROBERT BAKER: No, he is not going to answer that question. You are not going to argue the case through your argumentative questions. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Do you think that she was trying to trick the person that she called? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Do you know if Nicole kept any diary in May or June of '94? A: Not that I know of. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Let the record reflect that for the about the fourth time, MR. Kelly and MR. Petrocelli are whispering to each other. MR. KELLY: I think it's the first time, MR. Baker MR. ROBERT BAKER: First time after lunch, I would agree with that. MR. PETROCELLI: In the words of Phil Baker, you don't have to give him an explanation. MR. PHILLIP BAKER: MR. Kelly, you've never provided us with those documents, have you, and I believe those were the subject of special interrogatories, were they not? MR. KELLY: I don't think so, but I will check. MR. ROBERT BAKER: You never provided us with anything. No responses. MR. PETROCELLI: Nor have you. MR. ROBERT BAKER: I've provided you with a lot of objections, the same as you've provided me with. MR. PETROCELLI: With only objections. MR. ROBERT BAKER: That's all you've ever provided me with. But a lot of them; I admit that. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Did you want to say something to me John? MR. KELLY: I dare not, especially in the mike here, or MR. Baker will be all over me. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Not at all. MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Are these her supposed letters or her supposed diary? MR. PETROCELLI: We will find out what they are. MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Well, if we are being denied access to these diaries because of failure to respond to discovery, I don't think it's proper MR. PETROCELLI: These are documents that you have. You got them from the same place I have them. Okay? MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Where is that? MR. PETROCELLI: The murder book. MR. PHILLIP BAKER: And what are they? MR. PETROCELLI: They are documents in the murder book. That's all. MR. PHILLIP BAKER: You won't describe them, but you are telling me that I have them. MR. PETROCELLI: I am not going to debate this now. I am going to try and ask some questions. You still haven't responded to my numerous requests to have Mr. Simpson produce documents here. MR. PHILLIP BAKER: I haven't gotten responses from your side either, MR. Petrocelli. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Mr. Simpson, did you speak to Nicole on June 3, 1994? Do you recall? A: I don't recall. Q: Do you recall coming to pick up the kids at Bundy around 8:30 in the evening? A: Yes. Q: And the children wanted to stay with Nicole because she had let them organize sleepovers at the last minute. A: I don't know what the children wanted. Nicole just told me that she had just organized something for the kids. Q: Did she tell you that she would drop them off first thing in the morning? A: She might have. MR. ROBERT BAKER: If you don't recall, tell him you don't recall. THE WITNESS: I don't recall. I don't recall. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Well, you went there to pick up the kids. Did you leave with the kids? A: No. Q: And then you went home. Right? A: Yes. Q: Did you get the kids the next day? A: At some point, yes. Q: Okay. How did you get them? A: I don't recall. Q: Now, the evening before had you had an argument with Nicole? A: No. Q: Is that the night that she called you about going out with her friends June 2? A: What do you mean, "going out with her friends'? Q: Remember before you told me about a conversation where she was upset with you A: No, no. This was Q: -- because you were going out with Faye Resnick and Christian Reichardt? A: No. This is before then. Q: Excuse me? A: This is before then. Q: The Christian Reichardt-Faye Resnick situation occurred later. Is that what you're saying? A: Before. Before this. Q: Before June 3? A: I believe so, yes. Q: Okay. Now, did you hang up did she hang up on you on the evening of June 2? A: I don't recall talking to her on June 2. Q: Anywhere near June 2 she hang up on you? A: I don't believe I had talked to her. I don't -- I think I had cut off communications before then. Q: Did you say to her when you came to see her on June 3 at 8:30 p.m. to pick up the kids, "You hung up on me last night"? Did you say that to her? A: No. Q: "You're gonna pay for this, bitch." A: No. Q: "You're holding money from the IRS." A: No. Q: "You're going to jail, you fucking cunt.' A: No. Q: "You think you can do any freaking thing," or something like that, "You want. A: No. Q: "You've got it coming." A: No. Q: "I've already talked to my lawyers about this, bitch." Did you say any of those things to her? A: No. Q: "They'll get you for tax evasion, bitch. I'll see to it." A: No. Q: "You're not going to have a fucking dime left, bitch." A: No. Q: You said none of those things? A: None of those things. Q: Do you know whether Sydney had a girlfriend with her at the house when you went over to pick up the children? A: I believe a family had just arrived. Q: Okay. And do you remember the name -- of Sydney's friend? A: No. Q: Do you know the names of any of her friends around this time? A: Yeah. The normal friends, yeah. Q: What about Allegra? Does that ring a bell? A: No. But I do know for the period of time I was there, they were all just outside walking in. Q: When you were leaving? A: Yeah, when I drove up and when I left. Q: They were outside the whole time? A: Yeah. They were walking in, and she said, "A friend's here." Q: Did you meet the friend's parents? A: No. Q: The next day do you know whether Nicole came over to return the children to you, but you were not home? Did you learn about that? A: I don't know. MR. ROBERT BAKER: -- Return the children to [him]? A: I don't know BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Bring the children to you. A: I don't know. Q: Do you recall whether on the weekend before June 3 around May 28, 1994, you told Nicole that you could not take the kids that weekend? A: I -- possibly. I don't know MR. ROBERT BAKER: If you don't recall THE WITNESS: I don't know. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did you tell Nicole that even though you were in town over the weekend? A: I don't think I was in town that weekend. Q: On May 22 did Nicole tell you that she was officially splitting up with you? A: No. We had already split up. Q: Did she tell you on May22, which is a Sunday, that you and she were going back to every other weekend? A: No, I don't recall that at all. Q: Okay. Did she say that she needed rest and that you were gone too much? A: On 22? No. I think she was more into me, but I was not amenable. Q: Were you gone the last four weekends prior to May 22; out of town, that is? A: I don't -- I may have been. But I hosted -- no. I may -- I'm not MR. PETROCELLI: Is that a calendar, MR. Baker? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yeah, it's a calendar.You can check it out if you want. MR. PETROCELLI: I would like to. MR. ROBERT BAKER: See, it says "May 1994"? You can put up any date you want on them. MR. PETROCELLI: That's pretty good. THE WITNESS: Does it say that? MR. PETROCELLI: My respect for you is growing by the minute. I'm impressed. MR. KELLY: There are no answers on that, are there? MR. ROBERT BAKER: I'm typing them in. MR. LEONARD: The question is -- MR. PETROCELLI: It says, "Don't answer that." THE WITNESS: It would be difficult because two of those four weekends -- MR. KELLY: "I don't remember." THE WITNESS: It would be difficult to be away those previous four weekends because two of those four weekends I spent with Nicole and the kids. One of those four weekends, the weekend -- two weekends before that I spent with Lou Brown, Nicole and the kids, and the weekend before that was the weekend I returned from Puerto Rico and I spent with Nicole and the kids. So it couldn't have been. That's impossible. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Well, let me hand you out a document and ask you if you know anything about it. A: What am I supposed to -- MR. PETROCELLI: Let me mark this as Exhibit 86. THE WITNESS: Okay. So the answer is no. MR. ROBERT BAKER: There is no -- THE WITNESS: -- no, I wasn't out of town the four previous weekends, unless you count being in Laguna with Nicole and the kids out of town one of those weekends. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Can you mark that as the next exhibit in order. [Plaintiffs' Exhibit 86 was marked for identification by the reporter and attached hereto.] BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Mr. Simpson, do you recognize this handwriting on Exhibit 86? A: Not really, but -- not really. Q: Does it appear to be Nicole's handwriting? A: I don't really recognize it to be, but it could be. Q: Could you turn the pages? A: Uh-huh. To what page? Q: Just flip the pages and see if you believe this is in Nicole's handwriting. A: It looks a lot like her handwriting, yes. Q: Okay. Now, do you know whether she was keeping notes of events in her life A: No. Q: -- during this period of time? A: No. Q: May of '94? A: No. Q: Do you know why she would write down the things that I just read you on a piece of paper? A: Inaccurately? No. Q: Yeah. Why she would write them down if they were false? A: Well, they're obviously -- when you mentioned those four weekends out of town, that's false, so I have no idea. Q: But all the other things that I read to you were false also. Right? A: Yes. Q: All of the vile things that she attributed to you. A: Yes. Q: And do you have any -- any understanding as to why Nicole Brown in or about June 3 of 1994 would be writing down such things about you that were untrue? A: I have no idea. Q: Did you ever know her to do something like that in the past? A: I knew she would say things, because as I mentioned, Judy and I had that conversation before I left Puerto Rico, that were not true. I wasn't aware of any of her writings at that time. Q: What do you mean, "Judy and I had that conversation before I left Puerto Rico, that were not true"? I didn't follow our last answer? A: As I said to you earlier, Judy made a comment in one week when I was in Puerto Rico that she had spoke to Nicole one day and, O.J. -- the next day she spoke to her, Nicole attributed things to Judy that Judy had not said in the previous conversation the day before. Q: I see. Did you know Nicole to have a very vivid imagination? A: She was great with the kids, so, yeah, she was good. She was good at making up games and, you know, writing stories with the kids. So, yes, she was pretty good at that. Q: And had she ever to your knowledge made up things about you in the past? A: Yes. Q: You mentioned earlier in your deposition that she did so in connection with the divorce proceeding to get you to tear up the prenuptial. Right? A: That's correct. Q: And though you also said you didn't see anything that she wrote A: No. Q: -- she just told you that they had told her to say things. Right? A: Yes. Q: Other than that incident, did you know her to make up things about you that were not true? A: In what context? I don't -- Q: In any context. A: We -- in any context. Q: Yeah. A: Yes. Yes. Q: When? A: Often when you have an argument and the next time you talk, she'd say, "You said this." And I said, "That's not what I said." "You said this." I mean, you know, like most relationships, I would imagine. Q: But you would do the same thing. Right? A: She would say the same thing to me that I would say to her. Q: All right. So in other words, you didn't view that as unusual or abnormal, did you? A: No. Q: Okay. But in terms of what I just showed you, you would view that as highly unusual. Right? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, you don't have to -- characterize it any way you want. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Do you think that -- is this ordinary behavior for Nicole, as you know her for 17 years, to write things like this about you of this nature that are completely false? A: Her -- all her actions were unusual and un -- and not like the Nicole I knew in the last few years of her life. Many of them were, and that's why I had a concern,and I expressed those concerns to both Judy Brown and Lou Brown. Q: Well, the only thing you've said so far that you expressed to Judy and Lou Brown were drinking. A: Yes. Q: What -- did you express anything else to them about her highly unusual behavior over the last couple of years of her life? A: Yes. The choice of people that she ran around with. Some of the things that transpired during that period of time, yes, I expressed my concerns about those things. (Fredric Goldman enters the deposition.) BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did you think Nicole was mentally ill in May of 1994? A: No. I'll use her words: She seemed to be lost. Q: Okay. But at no time did you attempt to get the children taken away from her. Right? A: No. She's a great mother. Great mother at all times. Q: And you thought at all times that she was emotionally and mentally fit to care for the children. Right? A: Very much so. Q: Up to the last day of her life. Right? A: Yes. Q: It is true you were having a dispute with her about the IRS at this time. A: No. Q: That's not true either? A: No. I just wanted her to change addresses. Q: Have you ever seen this document before? A: I believe I may have. Q: When? A: When I was in jail. Q: How did you first come across it? A: I don't know. I think they just brought all kinda discovery in, and I don't recall specifically seeing this, but it doesn't seem unusual to me to see this at this point. Q: And when you -- after you saw it, did you talk to anybody other than lawyers about it? MR. ROBERT BAKER: You don't have to answer that. MR. PETROCELLI: Why not? I asked him other than lawyers. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Oh, I apologize. MR. KELLY: We ask the tough questions when you're talking to MR. Leonard. THE WITNESS: Yeah. I don't -- I know I didn't talk to anybody. If I talked to my lawyers about these things specifically, they'd have been the only people I talked to about it. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: For example, Cora Fishman, have you ever spoken to her about why Nicole was writing stuff like this -- A: No. Q: -- the last month of her life? A: No. Q: Or Christian? A: No. Q: Are you curious to know? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: On the weekend of May 28th -- you can look at MR. Baker's electronic calendar -- Nicole writes in here that you said you couldn't take the kids that weekend, but they did spend the night Friday and Monday with you. Is that true? A: No. Another inaccuracy in these letters. Another non-truth. I should say, in these letters. Q: Okay. It is not true that the kids spent the night Friday and then again Monday on Memorial Day? A: That's correct. Q: And you were in Palm Springs? A: That's correct. Q: Were the children with you? A: No. Q: Not at all on that trip? A: No. Q: On Saturday and Sunday Nicole says that they were -- the children were with her. Was that true? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, it says in the document, Exhibit 86 -- MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah, that's what I mean, MR. Baker. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Okay. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Is that true? MR. ROBERT BAKER: You can't get your foundation from your own questions, MR. Petrocelli. THE WITNESS: Pardon me? MR. ROBERT BAKER: I -- MR. PETROCELLI: I can try. MR. ROBERT BAKER: I've been overruled. You can. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Were the children with Nicole on Saturday and Sunday? A: I was out of town. I have no idea where they were. Q: Do you know from when you saw them again that they saw THE FLINTSTONES and went to play miniature golf? A: No. Q: Do you know whether you had the children the weekend before Memorial Day weekend? A: Certainly -- certainly for Sunday, I certainly had them. Wait. Let me- -yeah, certainly Sunday. I don't recall if -- certainly Sunday, I know. I don't think I was in town Friday or Saturday. Q: Okay. Can you turn the page? A: Which page? MR. ROBERT BAKER: I assume we are going to the -- THE WITNESS: Which page? MR. ROBERT BAKER: -- to June 4th? MR. PETROCELLI: Yes. Q: The last page, Mr. Simpson, June 4th. This is Exhibit 86. Did the children get to your house around 1:00 p.m. on June 4? What is that, MR. Baker, Saturday? MR. ROBERT BAKER: It is. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Saturday. A: That -- they could have, yes. Q: Did they spend the evening with you on June 4? A: They could have. I'm not sure. Q: Why are you not sure? A: Because I'm not sure. I knew they were with me on Sunday the 5th, and some parts of me feel that Nicole brought them over Sunday, the 5th. Matter of fact, I'm almost a hundred percent sure she did because Justin had dirtied up his clothes, and Paula took him to Rudnick's or someplace to get him new clothes to go to an affair with us. Q: When did you go to that affair? A: That Sunday, the 5th. Q: That was the Pediatric AIDS event? A: Yes. Q: And then you and the kids and Kato and his daughter went out to dinner at Sizzler? A: Yes. Q: Is that Sunday evening? A: Yes. Q: Okay. Could you turn back now to two pages earlier? Do you see the entry where it says "Friday, April 30"? MR. Baker, is that -- April 30, 1994, is that a Friday? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Saturday, according to this. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Do you know if you had the weekends -- do you know whether you picked up the kids for the weekend from school the last weekend in April? A: I don't think so. I think Nicole and I -- Nicole and I were -- I think -- April what? Show me. Is this April? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yeah, that's April of '94. The 30th is a Saturday, not a Friday. MR. PETROCELLI: She might be referring to '93 here. Q: Does that ring a bell? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Very good. THE WITNESS: What, '93? BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Yeah. I'm trying to -- A: I don't know. '93, I don't know what I was doing in April of '93. Q: Well, did you take the kids to Vegas on a trip in 1993? A: Yes. Yes. But I think that wasn't April 30th. Q: April 2? A: Yes. Q: That was 1993. Correct? A: That was 1993. Q: And was Paula on that trip with you? A: Paula met us there. Q: Okay. And you went with the two kids, and Paula met you there. Right? A: Two kids and Arnelle, and Paula met us there. Q: Okay. Can you turn to , which is two pages before? Okay? In the first part of this document there is an entry about you picked up the kids for Justin's "1st Wednesday visitation." Do you know what that refers to? A: At the top of the thing? Q: Yeah. A: I think once I got back from -- Yes, I do know what that refers to. Q: What does that refer to? A: I think once I got back from Buffalo -- I mean from New York that year -- Q: What year? A: This would have been '93. Q: Okay. A: -- I -- we made out in arrangement that every other weekend I would get the kids, and I had the option on Wednesdays to take them from 4:00 o'clock to 8:00 o'clock or something like that. Q: And again, this is before you attempted your reconciliation. Right? A: Yes. Q: And it says below the first entry, "He will take the kids Friday noon to P.S." What does that mean? Do you know? A: I'm sure it's Palm Springs. Q: Did you used to have Cathy Randa pick up the kids? A: I think she may have once or twice. Q: Okay. Did that bother Nicole? A: I don't know. She never said anything to me. Q: And A.C., did he used to pick up the children, too? A: Not from school. Not normally from school. Q: From Nicole's house? A: During this period of time I was avoiding Nicole. I don't think so. I think -- I know he brought them to Palm Springs, as this said, for me, because I was already there, but other than that I don't really recall A.C. picking -- not for me, anyway, Picking the kids up from school. I'm sure he did for her once or twice. Q: Do you recall cancelling the pick-up of the children on March 10 mentioned in the last entry here? A: I don't recall, but if I was out of town, I would have had to cancel, yes. This March 10, what day is this? Q: 1993. A: Yeah, if I wasn't in town, I probably did. Q: Now go back down to the bottom of the next page, 1880. A: Yeah. Q: The entry at the end says, "The rest of 1993 were spent either with me or as family weekends, hours or days. O.J. and I got back together starting April 12, 1993." Was that correct, that you got back together? A: No. That's what she wanted but, as I told you, that's when she had a little problem that I wouldn't commit. Q: Was -- did you go to Cabo in April of '93? A: We had got back from Cabo, and she assumed that that got us back together, and I told her it didn't. Q: Okay. Earlier today I was asking you about injuries that Nicole sustained and for which she received medical treatment, and you told me about Cowlings taking her to St. John's on April 1,1989. A: Uh-huh. Q: Do you know of any other instances when Nicole MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Did he say April 1? MR. PETROCELLI: January 1 -- excuse me -- 1989. Q: Do you know of any other instances when Nicole was treated for injuries? A: Well, one other incident that, once again, I insisted she go in case there was an injury, but there wasn't. So there was nothing to treat. Q: Was that when she fell off a bicycle? A: That's what she told me, yes. Q: Okay. And those are the only two times that you know of when Nicole was treated for injuries? A: Yes. Q: Okay. Do you know whether she ever suffered any injuries while she was pregnant? A: No, I don't know of any injuries she ever suffered while she was pregnant. Q: Did you have an argument with her about her first pregnancy, with Sydney, as to whether or not she should have the baby? A: No. I only got married to have kids. Q: And you had no such argument with respect to her second pregnancy, with Justin? A: None at all. Q: When she was pregnant with Sydney, was she supposed to have twins? A: I think she told me that she lost one of the -- that she could have had twins, but one of the sacs didn't go, something, early on. Q: Early on in the pregnancy? A: Yes. Q: To your knowledge the fetus had not grown full term? A: I think from the time she officially knew she was pregnant that had already happened, from what she says. Q: What had already happened? A: That it could have been, but one of them didn't hold or something. Q: Was a second twin born stillborn Do you know? A: No. I'm saying even before she knew officially she was pregnant whatever happened had happened Q: Already. A: Yeah. Q: So she only carried one fetus. A: Yes. Yes. Q: Were you in the delivery room with her for Sydney? A: I believe so, yes. Q: And for Justin? A: Yes. Q: Did you have an argument with Nicole about whether you should be in the delivery room for Justin? A: Yes. Q: Relate that. A: She said I made her too nervous when she was in the delivery room with Sydney, that I was too nervous or something, and -- but I still did it. My first wife told me the same thing. Q: When she was -- MR. ROBERT BAKER: He didn't ask you what your first wife told you. Jesus. Right here, look at the color, O.J. It's because of you. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: When she was pregnant with Sydney, did you tell her that you believed she had gained too much weight? A: No. Q: And you never berated her physical appearances A: No. Q: Same with Justin? A: Yes. Q: Have you ever heard that Nicole complained about you calling her fat during her pregnancies? A: After all of this had happened I heard it. yes Q: How did you hear that? A: I think I read it somewhere. Q: In her own handwritings? A: No. It may have been in a magazine or a news -- some of the coverage of the trial. Q: But it wasn't true. Right? A: That's correct. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Damn, I heard on the news that both of these guys are going to examine today, so you've got to hurry up. MR. PETROCELLI: You did? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yeah. MR. BREWER: That's a bombshell. MR. PETROCELLI: That's a bombshell. MR. ROBERT BAKER: You have the best lines of these. MR. PETROCELLI: He saves them. but they're good. Q: How many times did Nicole hit you in your relationship? A: I'd be guessing. MR. ROBERT BAKER: He doesn't want you to guess. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: So give me your best estimate. MR. ROBERT BAKER: If you have a best estimate. THE WITNESS: Five or six. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Was one of these the '89 incident? A: Yes. Q: Okay. You've already talked about that. What were the other incidents? A: I -- two or three of them were after '89. I believe I documented those. And I think at some point early in our relationship. When I say "early," before we got married. Q: What do you mean, you "documented those"? A: I would call Cathy whenever something happened and tell her to write it down and put it in a file, because that was recommended to me by some police officer. Q: When -- Who was the police officer? A: I don't recall, but it was around -- somehow around the '89 thing. Q: Where are those documents? A: I don't know. Q: Have you ever seen them? A: I haven't seen them -- I hadn't seen them since all this happened, but I'm pretty sure they were around in discovery or something. Q: you saw them during the criminal trial? A: I'm not a hundred percent sure I did, but I'm pretty sure that they were found around that time -- Q: You haven't seen them recently? A: No. Q: And can you describe the incidents that you wrote down? A: One time she just started hitting and kicking me, and I went into Justin's room. Why -- I don't recall what the conversation was at this time, but I know she did until she got tired, because I just covered my groin and covered my -- turned my back to her. And then another time she came in, I was just laying on the bed, and she took a stack of books and just slammed them down on me. And the other time may not have been physical. The other time may have been more verbal. Q: Where was the other time? A: I don't know, but it should be written in that thing. I don't recall right now. Q: And why did she slam the books down on you? A: It was -- it was -- I don't recall what it was. I'm not sure. I'm not sure what it was. Q: Was she upset at you.? A: Yeah. Q: About what? A: I'm not sure. MR. ROBERT BAKER: That's a great question. No, she always threw books at him. MR. PETROCELLI: I don't know. It wouldn't surprise me, based on what I'm hearing. THE WITNESS: I don't recall what it was about. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: You have no recollection at all? A: None. Q: Did it hurt? A: Not really. Q: Okay. You didn't call the police or anything. Right? A: No. Q: You made no report other than to Randa. Right? A: That's right. Q: Did you tell Nicole you were keeping track of this, by the way? A: No. Q: Was that in the year 1989? A: I don't know. It may have been. Q: And what about the other incident where she hit you and kicked you? A: What about it? Q: When did that occur? A: After '89. After the '8 ---New Year's Day '89 incident. Q: In the year 1989? A: I don't know. I don't recall. Q: What was the cause of that problem? A: I have no idea. Q: You just don't remember? A: I just don't remember. Q: At the time do you remember having an argument with her? A: Yeah, at the time I remember my purpose was to document it, and I did. Q: Well, she didn't just come up in the clear blue and start hitting and kicking you. Right? There was an argument you were having that escalated A: We said something -- she said something, I said something, and she started (Indicating), and I just turned and walked into Justin's room and she followed me. Q: And this was the first time there had been any physical confrontation after the January incident in 1989? A: I believe so, yes. Q: By this time you had signed that document that says if you were to inflict injury on her physically, then she could tear up the prenup? A: Exactly. Q: Is that one of the reasons you restrained yourself? A: Well, I believe that was one of the reasons she was hitting me. Q: Oh, to bait you into hitting her? A: Well, I don't know what she was doing. Q: Is that what you think? A: I don't know what she was doing, but she knew that I would not do anything, so she -- Q: Why did she know that? A: Because I sent the letter, because I had signed the letter. Q: And is that also the reason why you didn't hit her when she slapped ---slammed the books down? A: I wouldn't hit her under any circumstances before this if she slammed the books down on me. Q: Is that why you restrained yourself from removing her from the room? A: She -- when she did it -- MR. ROBERT BAKER: Is that the only reason that you restrained yourself from taking her out of the room THE WITNESS: No. No. MR. ROBERT BAKER: -- the piece of paper that you signed? BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Is it a reason? MR. ROBERT BAKER: No. That isn't what you asked him. MR. PETROCELLI: That's my next question. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Oh. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Was it a reason? A: Why? Q: Were you -- was it a reason? A: As I told you, I wouldn't have hit her before. I wouldn't have hit her before this. Q: What I am trying to find out is whether after you signed this agreement with her, you were deterred by that agreement from hitting her. A: I wouldn't have done it anyway. Q: Okay. Now, you said she verbally abused You? A: Yeah.. Q: How did,she do that? A: I don't know. I'd have to took at the thing. That's the reason I wrote them down, to remind me, and I don't recall right now. Q: Is that the only occasion on which she verbally abused you? A: Well it's -- I don't know. Verbal abuse had a totally different -- I mean, I don't know what verbal abuse is at this point. It's a little different to me than it was back then. Q: It's a little different to you? A: Now. Q: Now? A: Than it was to me back then. Q: In what sense? A: In -- I hear people talk to each other -- virtually every friend I know I've heard them get into arguments and say things. I've heard Judy say things to Lou that today I would, from what I understand, is now verbal abuse, but at the time I didn't think it was at all. I thought it was just people talking. Q: Did you ever hit your first wife. Marquerite? A: Never. Q: Did you consider yourself a batterer? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did you consider Nicole a battered spouse? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. MR. PETROCELLI: What are the basis? MR. ROBERT BAKER: No sound bites is the basis. MR. PETROCELLI: This isn't about sound bites, MR. Baker. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yes, it is. MR. PETROCELLI: It's not fair. MR. ROBERT BAKER: I am not going to let him answer it, so you can do anything you want. MR. PETROCELLI: What I'm -- MR. ROBERT BAKER: I am not going to let him answer it. You can make any speeches or whatever you want. MR. PETROCELLI: I am not trying to make speeches. I am trying to explain to you that his history of abuse, his relationship with Nicole, is highly relevant to the issues in this case, and it's on that basis that I am trying to explore. Q: You wrote the word "battered,' or you said you were a battered spouse in the so-called suicide note. Right? A: I said sometimes I felt like a battered spouse, yes. Q: Well, what did it feel like when you felt that way? A: I felt that when you -- for instance, when she was hitting me, that I had nothing to do. I didn't feel that, in my conscience, that I could call the police, so I felt helpless. Q: Why couldn't you call the police? A: Because I just wouldn't do that. Q: Just your choice. Right? A: My choice. I don't think it was a police matter. Q: Okay. And do you believe that Nicole was a battered spouse? A: From what I know of it, I would say in '89, that day, yes. Q: Is that the only day that you believe that she was a battered spouse in the course of your entire relationship with her? A: In my understanding of it today, I would say we were both verbally at times abusive of one another, but if that's the case, I -- in my opinion most of the people I know are verbal abusers. Q: At the time, before your current -- your current understanding is gained after her murder. Is that right? A: No. Q: Well, at the time that you were married to her before your divorce in 1992, did you think that she was a battered spouse -- A: No. Q: -- in the course of her relationship? A: No. Q: But you thought you were a battered spouse? A: At that time, no. Q: At the time that you were married to her before your divorce in 1992, did you think she was a battered spouse? A: I thought on New Year's that that was -- I understood from what I read and saw about battery at the time that that certainly was an abusive incident. Before then I would have said no. Q: When you said you were a battered spouse, what incidents did you have in mind: The slapping and the hitting and the verbal abuse? MR. ROBERT BAKER: He has already answered that, number one, and he didn't say he was. He said he felt like it. MR. PETROCELLI: What's the difference? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, the difference may be a legal conclusion that you're getting to that I'm not going to let him answer, and he is not going to answer that either. You've asked and answered that about four times now. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Have you ever been diagnosed by anyone as a batterer? A: No. Q: Do you know whether Nicole was ever diagnosed as a battered spouse? A: No. MR. ROBERT BAKER: I don't know who -- what you're talking about, "diagnosed as a" -- BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: You were never diagnosed as a battered spouse. Right? A: No. Q: Did Lenore Walker examine you? A: Yes. Q: Did she conclude you were a battered spouse? A: I don't know if that was her purpose. I don't know what her conclusions were, to be honest with you. Q: Did she ever tell you that? A: What? Q: That you were a batterer. A: I don't -- you know, I would have to really -- Q: Excuse me. I misspoke. My question to you is: Did Lenore Walker ever tell you that she was a batterer -- that you were a batterer? THE WITNESS: I don't -- this is my doctor. Can I talk about this? MR. ROBERT BAKER: You don't have to. It's okay. MR. PETROCELLI: She was a designated expert at trial. MR. ROBERT BAKER: But she didn't testify, as I recall. MR. PETROCELLI: I don't think that makes a difference. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, then you're going to have to test it in court because I'm not going to let him answer it. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Do you know who Lenore Walker is? A: Yes. Q: You ever meet with her? A: Yes. Q: Was there anyone else present? A: At times, yes. Q: Who? A: This other doctor. I can't think of her name. Q: How many times did you meet with Lenore Walker? A: I don't recall. I was in jail, so whenever she came. Q: More than twice? A: Yes. Q: Are you aware that she has said on national television that you've admitted to conduct that is battery? A: No. Q: Are you aware that she has called you a batterer? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. THE WITNESS: No. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: You would disagree with that? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that question. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: What tests did she administer to you? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. Those are all protected by the physician-patient privilege. MR. PETROCELLI: These were disclosed reports, including the MMPI. You want to take a little break here? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Sure. Why not. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. MR. Leonard whispering in your ear. MR. ROBERT BAKER: He is my co-counsel. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 2:37. [Recess.] THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 3:06. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: We were talking about Dr. Lenore Walker before the break. A: Yes. Q: How many times did you meet with her? A: I don't know. Q: Number of times, though? A: Yes. Q: Now, did you tell Dr. Lenore Walker that you had beat your wife? MR. ROBERT BAKER: You know, you don't have to answer that. I think that's protected by the physician-patient privilege. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did you tell Dr. Lenore Walker about acts of spousal abuse? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Same objection. Same instruction. MR. PETROCELLI: You are not going to let him answer any of the conversations with Dr. Walker? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Correct. MR. PETROCELLI: On the ground of this privilege? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yes. Q: What was your purpose in meeting with Dr. Walker? MR. ROBERT BAKER: If he had a purpose. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Yeah, if you had one. A: I personally didn't have a purpose. Q: And more than a dozen meetings, would you say? A: I don't know. Q: And was this other doctor present at all of them? A: No. Q: Was there anyone else present besides either Dr. Walker and this other person? A: No. Q: Was she also a doctor? A: Yes. Q: And how do you know that? A: Because I believe when they introduced themselves, it was doctor and doctor. Q: What was the subject matter of your conversations with them? MR. ROBERT BAKER: You don't have to answer that either because that's subject to the physician-patient privilege. Don't answer it. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did you take an MMPI test? A: I don't know what that is. Q: A test, a psychological test, where you answered a lot of questions, multiple choice, 4-, 500. A: I don't know if that's what it was, but I took a lot of tests. Q: Written tests? A: I believe so. Q: Who were present when you took those tests? A: They were, either one or the other or both. Q: Okay. Were you told the results of those tests? A: No. Q: Do you know why you were taking those tests? A: It had something to do with the case. Q: Do you know what it had to do with the case? A: No. Q: Dr. Walker ever tell you that you were a batterer? MR. ROBERT BAKER: You don't have to answer that. MR. PETROCELLI: Well, I am not going to ask any more questions about that, MR. Baker. Okay? We will -- MR. ROBERT BAKER: We will argue about that at a subsequent time. MR. PETROCELLI: We will resolve that at another time. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Fair enough. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: While you were married to Nicole, did you have a relationship with a woman named Tawny Kitaen? A: Yes. Q: That was in the late '80s. Is that right? A: Yes. Q: Okay. And did that relationship end before the New Year's Eve incident? A: Years before, yes. Q: And did it ever resume again? A: No. Q: Why did you call her from the airplane coming back from Chicago on June 13? A: If I did, I was looking for Cathy. Q: And what does Cathy have to do with Tawny Kitaen? A: They're best friends. They were at the time best friends. Q: Do they live near each other? A: Cathy lived in the Valley, and Tawny lived at the time on this side of the hill. Q: Okay. Now, was that the only reason you remember calling Tawny from the plane? A: Yes. Q: Okay. You said that from what you know now you would consider yourself to be a battered spouse, but what you knew at the time, you did not so regard yourself as a battered spouse. Is that right? MR. ROBERT BAKER: That isn't what he said. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Well, you wrote down as of June 17, 1994, that you were a battered spouse. Correct? MR. ROBERT BAKER: He said he felt like he had -- THE WITNESS: Sometimes I felt. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Well, you said you felt like you were a battered spouse as of June 17th. Right? A: Sometimes I felt like a battered spouse. Q: When was the first time that you came to a realization that you felt like a battered spouse? A: When Nicole was hitting me that time at home. I don't know if that's the first -- if that was the first incident in that group of incidences, but I felt helpless. Q: And when she threw the books on you, did you feel like a battered spouse then? A: I felt helpless, yes. Q: Do you think Nicole felt helpless as a result of your incident with her? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. It calls for pure speculation, and his state of mind relative to her state of mind is irrelevant, and I am going to instruct him not to answer the question. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did you -- Well, this is a discovery deposition, but in any event, I'll ask another question. Did you observe her being helpless? A: When? Q: When you were struggling with her, "rassling" with her, as you put it, January 1, 1989. A: Well, she was rassling, back, so she wasn't helpless. Q: She was not helpless in the sense you felt -- A: She was struggling back. In cases I wasn't struggling back. In her case she was. Q: Has Nicole ever verbally abused you in public? A: Yes. I mean, at the time I didn't think it was abuse, but yes. Q: In your video, Mr. Simpson, in response to that searing examination by Ross Becker, you said MR. ROBERT BAKER: At least he could complete his in a day. MR. BREWER: 90 minutes. MR. PETROCELLI: 90 minutes, MR. Baker. MR. PHILLIP BAKER: 92. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: -- you said in response to a question about whether you were a battered husband: "That is a problem that when I am free to speak and I go -- and I plan to speak to women's groups, I think that is an issue. That is an issue that, you know, battery is just not a one-way street. I think it is more an attitude than anything, just because it doesn't hurt when someone hits you, someone slaps you or someone in front of people is verbally abusive to you, to me all that constitutes battery." A: From what I understand it to be now, yes. Q: And, now, did you have that understanding during your relationship with Nicole? A: No. Q: All of this understanding was obtained after she died? A: No. After '89. And a little after she died. A little in talking to Lenore. Q: Did you become aware of battery as a social problem after this incident in January of 1989? A: I don't understand that question. Q: Well, did you become aware of it more than you had been in the past? Did you learn about it? Did you read about it? Did you go to sessions? A: Yes. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Which one do you want him to answer? MR. PETROCELLI: All of those. Q: Did you do all those things? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer the question It's compound. You can break it down. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did you read books on spousal abuse or battery after the '89 incident? A: I believe so, yes. Q: And you attended therapy sessions? A: Yes. Q: And you spoke to professionals about it? A: Yes. Q: Okay. And from that point on, do you think you had a good understanding of what battery was? A: To an extent, yes. Q: And from that point on, did you ever batter Nicole? A: No. Q: Did Nicole ever slap you in front of people? A: Yes. Q: When did she do that? A: Once in the late 70s, early '80s, and then once in a club. Q: The first time who was present? A: I really didn't know the people. It was at a party. Q: She slapped you in front of strangers? A: Yes. Basically. yes. Q: What did do you? A: I left. Q: Left her there? A: Yes. Q: Where was this place? A: I don't know if it was called Bumble's or Pips at the time. Q: Pips? A: Pips or Bumble's. Q: Was it a restaurant? A: No. It was a restaurant/club. Q: Can you name anybody who was present that witnessed the slapping? A: At this point in time, no. Q: Any of your friends there? A: They may have been, but I just don't recall. Q: Who might have been there? MR. ROBERT BAKER: This calls for pure speculation. THE WITNESS: I mean, it would -- I really don't know who might have been there. Billy Kehoe, Suzie Kehoe BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Okay. Anybody else come to mind? A: No. Q: And the second occasion when Nicole slapped you in public? A: It was in Laguna. Q: And who was present? A: At the incident most of her sisters for sure, and I don't know who else. Q: Was this in a restaurant A: No. It, was -- it may have been a restaurant. May have been at a Mexican -- I can't think of the name. Las Brisas or something. Q: Any friends there? A: You know, there were a lot of people there, and I just can't recall. This was 12, 15 years ago. Q: Why did she slap you? A: I don't know. Q: Did you have a fight with her? A: Maybe an argument. Maybe some words. Q: And she slapped you earlier because you had an -- in the club because of an argument also? A: I don't know if it was an argument. I may have been flirting with some body. Okay. Did you hit her back on either of those occasions? A: No. I left on both of those occasions. Q: Did you make up with her soon there fter? A: Yes. Q: Did you ever tell Nicole that she was a batterer? A: No. Q: Do you know whether Nicole ever sought treatment as a batterer? A: No. Q: Did you ever discuss that she should seek such treatment? A: I don't think either one of us ever did. Q: Now, Nicole didn't press charges against you. Right? A: Correct. Q: The '89 incident. Right? A: Correct. Q: And she didn't go to the press either. Right; A: Correct. Q: And she did that because of your desire that she not disclose this to the press. Right? A: I think part of it, yes. Q: And she let it die out. Right? A: Well, she called the police, so -- yeah, I guess it -- I guess we went on with our lives. Q: Did Michelle let you into her bedroom, that night with a key? A: No. Q: Did Michelle let Nicole into your room? A: No. Q: Was Michelle involved at all? A: Yes. Q: In what way? A: She was there. Q: Did she see you two fighting? A: She heard us arguing. She didn't see us fighting, no. Q: Did she come upstairs -- A: No. Q: -- to see you at all? A: No. Q: Okay. And Cowlings wasn't there during the fight either, was he? A: No. Q: As of Nicole's death, did you have a contract with NBC as a sportscaster? A: Uh-huh. Q: You have to answer yes. A: Yes. Q: When was that due to expire? A: I think I just had signed an extension for another three or four years. MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Are you going to be asking about his financial affairs, Dan? MR. PETROCELLI: No. not right now. Q: And were you under contract with anybody else as of June 12, 1994? A: Hertz, for sure. Q: Was that a long-term, contract? A: I think it was maybe two, three more years left on that. Q: Did you have any other employment at that time? A: Other than my just normal stuff, you know, I was -- you know, I'll do a movie here or there. I can't think of anything real specific, no. Q: So the only two contracts you had were NBC and Hertz? A: I believe so. Q: Okay. Were you under contract to act in any movies to be produced? A: At the time of her death? Q: Yes. A: No. Q: And were any deals in development or anything like that? A: Well, I had done something that was up for consideration for a TV series called FROGMAN. Q: You had done the pilot for FROGMAN. Right? A: Yes. Q: And had no contract outside of the pilot? A: Well, if it went to a series, I believe there was -- I believe there was an arrangement in place. Q: Okay. And did you have any agreements with any other motion picture producers? A: No. Q: Okay. Both NBC and Hertz contracts have been cancelled? A: Yes. Q: Now, did you -- were you under contract to NBC and Hertz as of June -- -excuse me -- in January of '89? A: No. Q: Which one? A: What do you mean? Q: Either of them? A: I was under contract to Hertz. Q: But not NBC? A: Not NBC. Q: Were you with another broadcasting company? A: No. Q: When did you begin working for NBC? A: 1989. Q: What year -- I mean what month in '89? A: The fall. Q: Okay. And what was the last contract you had before that for a broadcasting company? A: I believe I -- I don't know what year, but sometime in the late '80s I did something for -- it could have been ESPN. Q: Were you ever employed by ABC? A: Yes. Q: When was that? A: In the mid and early '80s. Q: And when did that end? A: And then in the early '70s. Q: When did it end in the '80s? A: I believe it was '86 maybe. Q: So between 1986 and the fall of '89 you didn't have a regular broadcasting job. Is that right? A: I did something with ESPN, I believe. I did one season, I believe, with ESPN where I did five or six games. Q: Of college football? A: No. Pro games. Q: For one season, you said. Right? A: Yes. Q: So that was the only broadcasting work in between the ABC and NBC jobs? A: Correct. Q: And your contract in the fall of 1989 with NBC, how long was that for? A: I'm sorry. Say that again. Q: Your contract with NBC that you entered into in the fall of '89, how long was that contract for? A: Somewhere between three and five years, I believe. Q: Okay. Was it renewed? A: Yes. Q: How many times? A: I believe in '94 it was being renewed for the third time. Q: For the third time? A: I believe so. Q: Were there any morals clauses in the NBC contract? A: You know, I never read the contract. Q: Or in the Hertz contract? A: I never read the contract. but I believe that's -- there's something pretty standard in most of those contracts. Q: About their ability to terminate in the event of conduct that they find objectionable? A: I believe so. Q: Were you under -- were you endorsing any other products or services in January of 1989 besides Hertz? A: I don't recall. Q: Okay. Let me go back to Exhibit 86 for a minute. I forgot to ask you about the first page, Mr. Simpson. Why don't you take a look at that. I am going to ask you just to go over the first me. A: Okay. Q: It is true, referring to the first entry there, that you had not called Nicole between Christmas and January 16, 1993. Is that right? A: Say that again now. Q: Referring to the first entry at the top of is it true that between December 25, 1992 and January 16, 1993 you had not called Nicole? MR. ROBERT BAKER: If you have a recollection. THE WITNESS: Well, called Nicole or called my kids? BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Called Nicole. A: No, I didn't call Nicole. Q: Did you tell Nicole that you were coming back to Los Angeles during the week of or following January 16, 1993? A: I don't believe so, no. Q: Did you come back that week? A: I don't know. Q: Now, on Monday, January 18, 1993, were you in Los Angeles? A: I could have been. Q: Do you recall picking up Justin at Gretna Green and Sydney from Rachel Berman's and taking them to breakfast? A: I don't recall it. I don't recall it, no, but I could have. Q: Okay. And Monday, February 1, 1993, do you recall picking up Justin from Oliver's party? A: I do -- I don't know where I picked him up from but I do recall February 1st clearly, vividly, as a matter of fact. Q: Why is that? A: Because it was the first time I had spoken or saw Nicole since Christmas. Q: Okay. Do you know -- Dita is who? Judy? A: Judy, yes. Q: Did Judy come to see you and the kids on that day? A: When I drove up to get the kids' clothes, Dita was standing outside with Nicole, of their house, and that's when I saw Nicole. A: I believe so. Q: And did you take kids to karate? A: Yes. Q: Okay. And did you watch karate? A: I believe so. I don't know if I did or didn't. I'm not sure. Q: Did you go to Toscana's with Nicole, Judy and the kids or did you go home after karate? A: I didn't do anything with Nicole. I saw Nicole for three or four minutes, and that was the only time I saw Nicole. Q: Then you went home? A: Yes. Q: Did you have a confrontation with Nicole about the February 2, 1992 vacation plans? A: "Confrontation," I don't know if it's the right word, but -- Q: Argument? A: I don't think that was the right word either. Nicole was mistaken on -- Nicole hadn't paid any heed to a letter that she received. Q: From whom? A: From my office, stating that I would not be in town the remainder of that week. so I wanted to spend time with my kids for the 1st, 2nd and I believe the 3rd, because I was leaving town on the 3rd. Q: And she didn't pay any attention to that. Is that what you said? A: She wanted me to keep the kids all week because I had been -- this was the first time I was back in L.A., and she made some comment about she was going to Europe that week. Q: Did you call to leave a message that you were going to stay in Florida? A: No. Q: See, I am referring to the last entry on here. A: Where is this at? MR. ROBERT BAKER: It's right down here [Indicating]. It's very poor on that copy. BY MR. PETROCELLI: trn Q: "O.J. called once to leave a message" something "stay in Florida." I can't read it all. A: It could be, because I was in Florida I would say a lot during that time. I was thinking to move to Florida. Q: During the week of February 13 and 19, did Nicole take the kids to Aspen to go skiing? A: I'm sorry? Q: During the week -- I am referring now to the second page, Mr. Simpson, the only entry on there. A: Yeah. Q: During the week of February 13 to 19, did Nicole take the kids to Aspen to go skiing? A: I believe so. Q: Okay. Thank you. Let me show you -- You recalled Nicole going with Sydney to see Disney On Ice in January 1988? A: No. Q: Do you recall you being invited and not wanting to go? A: No. Q: Okay. Do you recall Nicole taking Sydney to go to Disney On Ice at some other occasion? A: No. Q: Did you ever go to see Disney On Ice? A: I don't believe so. Q: Okay. Well, let me show you this letter dated it appears to be January 1988. Can't read the day. Mark this as the next exhibit. [Plaintiffs' Exhibit 87 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.] BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Have you ever seen this document before? A: I might have. Q: When did you first see it? A: I believe when I was in jail. Has this been changed, this date? MR. ROBERT BAKER: I can't read the date. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Do you recall an incident when you came back from going out with A.C. Cowlings and you were drunk in or around January of 1988 and had a confrontation with Nicole? A: No. Q: Do you recall calling her a fat pig? A: No. Q: Do you recall whether Nicole was two months' pregnant in 1988? A: She probably would have been. Q: She was two months' pregnant with Justin, who was born in August of 1988. Correct? A: She probably would have been, yes. Q: Okay. Down here in the middle it says, "He never let up. You're a fat pig . . . You're disgusting. You're a slob... I want you out of my fucking house." Did you say those things to Nicole? A: Never. Q: "Then I took Sydney to bed, tried to, anyway! And he proceeded to cut me down with A.C. in the entry downstairs." Do you recall that? A: No. Q: "I tried to tape the conversation but the recorder didn't work. He was saying all those things again, so that I could hear every word as he was telling A.C. -- My wife's a fat ass -- a liar... I stopped fucking other girls, and now I jack off . . . The fat ass . . ." Did you say those things? A: Never. Q: Do you recall locking her out of her room? A: No. Q: You lived in Rockingham then. Right? A: In '88? Q: Yeah. A: Yes. Q: Did you tell her to get out of your fucking house? A: No. Q: You see all these things written down here? A: You want me to read it all? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Next page. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Well, look at the second page, Mr. Simpson. I am at the first complete paragraph. It says that you said you want her "to have an abortion with the baby." Did you say that? A: I would have never said that, ever. Q: She said she packed a few things together. Do you remember her doing that? A: No. Q: Did you tell her that, "Let me tell you how serious I am . . . I have a gun in my hand right now -- Get the fuck out of here"? A: No. Q: Did you have cats at that time as pets? A: We used to have cats. I don't know if we still had them at this time. Q: Okay. Nicole writes: "I got real scared and grabbed Sydney and the cats and a bag for her and a bottle -- and a pair of sweats from the laundry room for me and get the hell" -- "got the heck out of the house." Do you see that? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, see, it says -- it's your foundation that it's Nicole's writing. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Well, do you recognize this writing as Nicole's? A: I can't tell with this, but it could be Nicole's, yes. Q: Do you know why Nicole would write such things if they were not true? A: Maybe she was feeling that way. Q: That she would just invent this whole thing? MR. ROBERT BAKER: If you don't know, just tell him you don't know. THE WITNESS: I don't know. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Well, was there some incident that you believe she might have been referring to here? A: No. Q: Does this resemble anything that happened that you can recall? A: Nothing I ever recall. No. Q: Is it possible that it happened but you don't recall? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. THE WITNESS: No. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: It never happened? A: Never happened. Q: You're a hundred percent sure? A: I never said these things to Nicole, ever. Q: Does it -- When you saw this for the time, were you shocked that such things were written down by Nicole? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. It's irrelevant whether he was shocked or not shocked. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Were you? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer it, I told you. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did you do anything about it? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Do anything -- BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: To investigate why she did this. MR. ROBERT BAKER: While he was in jail? MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that either. MR. PETROCELLI: He had a lot of lawyers, MR. Baker. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Thank you very much for your gratuitous remark. MR. PETROCELLI: And a lot of investigators. MR. ROBERT BAKER: You don't have to answer that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did you ever find out the circumstances behind Nicole's writing of these -- of this letter? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. MR. PETROCELLI: Well, he can tell me if he knows. MR. ROBERT BAKER: He could tell you a lot of things he knows if I allowed him. MR. PETROCELLI: That's not privileged. MR. ROBERT BAKER: It's not privileged? MR. PETROCELLI: No. MR. ROBERT BAKER: It's not attorney work product and it's not protected -- MR. PETROCELLI: He might have learned it from Al Cowlings. Q: Putting your lawyers aside, do you have any information about the circumstances of Exhibit 87? A: No. Q: Now, you don't believe Exhibit 87 was made up by Nicole in connection with getting out of the prenup, do you? A: Personally? Q: Yes. A: Yes. Q: And what makes you say that? A: I don't know. She -- when she talked to me about some of the things that they had her doing, one of the things, that she had to write letters, and this looks like a letter with -- some of the other stuff I saw didn't took like letters. Q: Well, when I asked you about this before, you never told me that she said that they had her -- they asked her to write letters. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer his argumentative question. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Is that something that you just thought of now? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that question. It's argumentative, and it's your saying what he testified to earlier. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Are you now saying that Nicole told you the lawyers had her write letters? A: She said to me they had her write a bunch of stuff, you know, when she was filling out various things, writing up these, her words, "letters." She didn't say anything other than notes, other than letters. I assumed they were all letters, but they weren't when I saw them in jail. Q: What were the other ones that were not letters? A: This whole list that -- when she says, "These are the things I remember," and she wrote all of these things that you guys start saying was a diary. Q: Okay. Now, this document, did somebody tell you that this is what Nicole's lawyers had her write up, Exhibit 86 -- excuse me -- Exhibit 87? A: No. But I just saw it with -- in the packet that I got of all of those allegations, this was a part of it, so I assume this was all a part of it. Q: When you were given that packet, were you told this is a packet of materials that Nicole made up? A: No. I was given a lot of discovery one day, and I sat in my cell and read it. Q: And you saw a bunch of documents which appeared to be allegations by Nicole against you. Right? A: Well, this was all in one packet, Q: And it was those documents that you thought at that time were the documents that she made up. Right? A: Well, I knew they were the documents she made up because they said they were hers, and I knew it was made-up stuff. Q: And how did you know they, were hers? A: Because it was purported to be hers. It was Q: Who purported it to be hers? A: Whoever delivered it to me, and whatever it was, it was purported to be her things with her lawyers, and Q: Who told you it was her lawyers? A: -- I can't recall if they were signed by her or not, but the handwriting was much like this handwriting, and it was purported that these were allegations that she was making to her lawyers. Q: Do you know where these documents came from when they were given to you? A: Discovery. Q: Discovery from whom? A: From the prosecution. Q: Now, where did the prosecutors get it? A: I have no idea. Q: Did you ever ask? A: No. Q: In other words, you think they were found in Nicole's home or personal possessions or lawyer's office? MR. ROBERT BAKER: It's irrelevant, where he thinks they were found. He has told you he doesn't know. Don't answer that. Q: Let me show you -- let me show you the next exhibit in order, which will be -- what are we? THE REPORTER: 88. MR. PETROCELLI: 88. Here you go, David. (Plaintiffs'Exhibit 88 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.) BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Have you ever seen Exhibit 88 before? A: I just saw it, yes. Q: Just a minute or two ago you were referring to a document where various incidents were listed. Is this the one you had in mind? A: Yes. Q: I believe I've already asked you about each of these claims of abuse, and you have said none of them occurred. Is that right? A: Correct. Q: Who is Bruce? A: I believe her divorce lawyer. Q: Nicole -- do you recognize the note to Bruce to be in Nicole's handwriting? A: It could be. I don't -- I can't say that I totally right now recognize Nicole's handwriting, but I'm assuming it is. Q: Do you have any reason to believe this note is not in her handwriting? A: Not really, no. Q: Now, she writes here in the middle, "There were plenty of small times where he'd just push me or grab me hard enough to bruise my arms, but they happened so often that I can't remember specifics." Is that true that that occurred? A: No. Q: And did you ever push her or grab her hard enough to bruise her arms? A: No. Q: Okay. Go to the second e it talks about Pips on Rodeo. A: Uh-huh. Q: Is that the place where she where Nicole slapped you? A: No. This is a place that was still on Robertson. Q: When did you get a wine closet put into your Rockingham residence? A: 19 -- I mean what's there now I got in 1990 maybe, '89 or '90. Q: And before then did you have a little area where you would store wine? A: Yes. Q: What did you call that? A: I don't know. Q: A wine closet? A: It could be called that, but I never called it a wine closet. Q: And how long was that closet there? A: Since I had Rockingham. Q: You don't recall any incident where you put Nicole in that closet, do you? A: Never. Q: Could you go to the tled "Vacations' in here? A: What hat? Q: I think it's the next to last page. A: Okay. Q: The first one says "Italy," and then it has next to that, "Venice, Rome, Florence, England, Germany." Do you see that? A: Yes. Q: Did you go on a vacation like that with Nicole? A: Yes. Q: For her 21st birthday? A: I don't know if it was for her birthday. I doubt it was for her birthday because we were there for Octoberfest. The earlier part of Octoberfest, so it was late September, so Q: What year? A: I don't know. Q: Early on in your relationship? A: Relatively, in terms of 17 years, yes, but it couldn't have been her birthday because it was Octoberfest. Q: The next line says "Aspen," can't read the next word. A: "Many times." Q: "Many times." A: Yeah. Q: Is that true, that you and she went there many times? A: Yes. Q: It says "1986 -- Vail . . .(many times)." A: Yes. Q: Is that true also? A: Yes. Q: "1988 -- Hawaii (many times)." Is that true? A: Yes. Q: "Cabo San Lucas." Is that true? A: Yes. Q: 1988 was Hawaii and Cabo. In 1989 it says "Acapulco twice [sic], birthday." Is that true? Did you go there then? A: In 1989 Q: Yeah. A: -- I don't think we went twice, but I went there for her -- took her there for her birthday, yes. Q: Did you go to Puerto Vallarta? A: No. Q: Las Hadas? A: Las Hadas we went to on our honeymoon. Puerto Vallarta -- Q: Honeymoon in 1985? A: I don't think -- You're telling me to read what she says here. Q: Is that where you went? A: Yes, that's one of the places we went to. I don't ever recall going to Puerto Vallarta with Nicole, but I might have. We might have. Q: Just so I'm clear, your honeymoon was in Las Hadas in 1985? A: Yes. Q: Okay. Did you attend a wedding for Michael Millitello at the Ritz Carlton with Nicole? A: Yes. Q: That's on the last page. A: Yes. Q: But there was no incident of abuse there? A: None at all. Q: Who are Eric and Val Von Warts? A: Our neighbors -- was our neighbors. Q: Now, there it says that you and they listened to music on Wilshire. What's this Wilshire place? Do you know anything about that? A: No. It just seemed to me that we once went to hear a band of some friend of Watts once on Wilshire. It's -- you know, it's a while ago, so- - but it just seemed to me that we may have. Q: Did you ever take Nicole to a hospital on Wilshire Boulevard? A: No. Is there a hospital on Wilshire? Q: I don't know. Is there? A: Yeah, there is. Q: Where? A: My two kids were born, Cady kids were born at Good Samaritan Hospital in downtown L.A. Q: Wilshire? A: Yes. Yes. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yeah, it goes all the way through. Yeah, it goes all the way through. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Let me show you another document, Mr. Simpson. Mark this as Exhibit 89. [Plaintiffs' Exhibit 89 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.] BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: You ever see this document before? A: No, I don't recall. Q: Did you see it in jail? A: I might have. Q: Does this document appear to you to be in Nicole's handwriting? A: Yeah, it looks like the same handwriting as this other. Q: What did Nicole call you? A: O.J. Q: This is a letter addressed to you, and it says in part here: "I'd like you to keep this letter if we split so that you'll always know why we split. I'd also like you to keep it if we stay together as a reminder." Okay? A: Uh-huh. Q: Did you ever get this letter from her? A: No. Q: Could you tell by that statement when this was written? A: No. Q: After the June -- excuse me. After the January 1989 incident, was there a time when you and she were contemplating splitting.? A: No. Q: You never even discussed it? A: Till she told me she wanted to split, it never came up. Q: Did Nicole ever tell you that she saw your marriage as a huge mistake? A: No. Q: Prior to your marriage but while you were living with her, were you frequently seeing other women? A: No. Q: Was that a subject of contention between Nicole and you? MR. ROBERT BAKER: You've gone into that. Don't answer that. You've gone into that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: This letter indicates that it was, and I am perhaps hoping this might jog your recollection. Does it? A: I don't know. I haven't read the letter, but, I mean, obviously when there were phone numbers, she would make comments. Q: Just about phone numbers? A: Yeah. Q: She says she "took the blame many times for your cheating." Do you know what that refers to? A: No. Q: She writes in the second paragraph, "I remember a long time ago a girlfriend of yours wrote you a letter. She had" -- "she said, well, you aren't married yet, so let's get together." Do you know who -- Did you ever receive such a letter? A: I didn't, but she did. Q: Nicole did? A: Yes. Q: From whom? A: I don't know. I was at USC, and some girl put a letter on my windshield wiper, and evidently I never noticed it driving home, and Nicole took it off the windshield wiper. Q: And she talked to you about it? A: Yes. Q: What did it say? A: I don't recall. I never saw the letter. She never gave me the letter. Q: Something about your getting together with her? A: Could have been. Q: Okay. The third his letter, I am not going to read it; it's too long and there is a lot of profanity in here, but generally the third page, the third paragraph, talks about your giving her bad treatment, looks of disgust because she was heavy from her pregnancy with Sydney. That's not true? A: No. Q: Did you ever complain to Nicole, let's say before 1990, that her living habits bothered you; she was sloppy and messy?. A: Living habits? Q: Yeah, that she'd leave things around, she was not neat, leave her shoes on the floor, things like that. A: I think it was sort of a running thing with us, yes. Q: And you were more neat and orderly? A: Yes. Q: Now, the next his, it says "2764" at the top, it says: "There was also that time before Justin and after Sydney I felt good about how I got back into shape. You beat the holy hell, out of me and we lied at the X-ray lab and said I fell off a bike. Remember!??" Now, do you see that? A: Yes. Q: Do you recall such an incident? A: No. Q: You never beat A: It never happened. Q: It never happened? A: Never happened. Q: Now, in the next paragraph Nicole writes about the televised Clipper game and going to Stellini's before the game and your 40th birthday party and the week leading up to it." Do you recall those events? A: I don't recall -- I recall my 40th birthday party, but the events around it, I don't remember. We always went to Stellini's, so . . . Q: Was there some episode or incident at a televised Clipper game that comes to mind? A: No. Q: And the top of the next , "Since Justin's birth is the . . . New Year's Eve beat up." You deny beating her up. Right? MR. ROBERT BAKER: There is a word after -- MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me? MR. ROBERT BAKER: There is a word after -- MR. PETROCELLI: Where, MR. Baker? THE WITNESS: What are you talking about? MR. PETROCELLI: 2763. MR. ROBERT BAKER: "The mad New Year's Eve"? Oh, is that what it is, "the mad New Year's Eve"? MR. PETROCELLI: Oh, you're right. Q: "And since Justin's birthday is the mad New Year's Eve beat up." Do you see that? A: I see it. yes. Q: But that didn't occur. Right? A: We had a fight on New Year's, as I told you. Q: But you didn't beat her up. A: No. Q: Okay. A: But the bruises and stuff she received, I feel totally responsible for. Q: On the next to last page, Nicole writes: "I called the cops to save my life whether you believe it or not. But I didn't pursue anything after that -- I didn't prosecute, I didn't call the press and didn't make a big charade out of it. I waited for it to die down, and asked for it to." Is that true? A: What portion of it? Q: The whole thing. A: Well, it couldn't be true because we had stopped fighting. She called the cops after the fight was over, so I don't -- I don't -- that can't be true. The rest of it -- Q: The part about she called the cops to save her life. That's what you're saying. Right? A: That's what I'm saying, yes. Q: The rest of that's true, though. Right? A: What is the rest of it? I don't . . . Q: The next sentence: "I didn't pursue anything after that -- I didn't prosecute, I didn't call the press and didn't make a big charade out of it -- I waited for it to die down and asked for it to"? A: Yes. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Tape change, is that what you said? Go ahead. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is end of tape No. 2 of Volume VI. The time is approximately 3:50 and we are off the record. [Recess.] THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. The time is approximately 4:08. This is the beginning of tape No. 3 of Volume VI. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: After Nicole and you were married and had children, did she go out less frequently? A: Yes, we went out less frequently. Q: Did you and she used to argue over her backing out of functions at the last minute? A: Yes. Q: So look at the last his, the paragraph in the middle. It says: "I agree that we married" -- "that after we married things changed -- we couldn't have house fulls of people like I used to have over and barbecue for, because I had other responsibilities. I didn't want to go to a lot of events and I'd back down at the last minute on functions and trips I admit. I'm sorry." Is it true that those things occurred? A: Yes. Q: Okay. Let me mark the next three exhibits, 90, 91 and 92. These are the three letters from you, Mr. Simpson. I think you've seen these in court already. First one is a two ment. Mark that as Exhibit 90; second one is three pages, and that will be 91; and the third one is a seven- page document. That will be 92. [Plaintiffs' Exhibits 90, 91 and 92 were marked for identification by the reporter and are attached hereto.] BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: You've seen these three exhibits before, 90, 91 and 92? A: No. Can I read them.? Q: Oh, sure. What I want you to do is put them in proper chronological order for me. [Witness reviews documents.] MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Off the record real quick. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record. [Discussion held off the record.] MR. PETROCELLI: Back on the record. THE WITNESS: Yeah. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: And you wrote all three of these? A: Yes. Q: They are all in your own handwriting, A: Yes. Q: When did you write these? Start with -- A: I really can't say. It seems as if this one with the 92 would have been the first one, it just seems. Q: Okay. A: And it seems that 90 would have been the last one, but it was all in -- one of them I wrote while we were -- actually while we were having dinner. I don't know which one, though. Q: At Rockingham? A: Yes. Q: Do you know the dates of these, when you wrote these letters? A: I would say they were all written within the month, yeah, all pretty much written within the two weeks to -- you know, within that first month. Q: January 1989? A: Yes. Q: Did you give all three of these to Nicole? A: Yes. Q: Exhibit 90 is written on Cartier stationery. Do you see that? A: Uh-huh. Q: Do you know where you got that from? A: No. Q: Were you in New York during this time? A: No. Q: You didn't have a football job in January of 1989. Is that right? A: No. Q: Why didn't ABC renew your contract? Do you know? A: You mean back in '86? Q: Yeah. A: I don't know. They were going with a whole new look on Monday night football, other than Gifford. Q: Were you having a drinking problem in December 1988, January 1989? A: No. Q: In one of these letters, I believe it's Exhibit 92, it says that you agreed to go to Alcoholics Anonymous. A: Yes. Q: Why.? A: Because we had been drinking, and then I got physical, and I didn't think that was an excuse for that. I didn't want to use alcohol or whatever, the way I reacted, as an excuse. Q: So you didn't have any drinking problem, but you went to AA anyway? A: No. Nicole told me, "Well, you don't have to go to AA. You're not a drunk," and I didn't. Q: Were you drunk that night? A: Well, I think we both were drinking, so we had drank pretty good that night. Q: Were you drunk? A. I was able to drive home, but I think we had drank pretty good that night yes. Q: Were you legally drunk? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Did you take a blood alcohol test? BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Had you taken one, would you have passed or failed? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. It's a great question, though. MR. PETROCELLI: You are not going to let him answer? MR. ROBERT BAKER: No. I think it calls for pure speculation. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: In all three of these letters, basically you're expressing regret for the incident? A: Yes. Q: And again you seem to have some very strong words of regret here about your conduct being unacceptable and so forth. A: The way I reacted, I thought I reacted unlike I had ever reacted before. Q: But all you did was restrain her and try to get her out of the room. Right? A: I physically removed her from a room and I had never really done that before. Q: In Exhibit 91 you talk about a conversation with the detective. A: Yes. Q: Is that Edwards? A: No. Q: Who is that? A: Ferrill. Q: You also say you're not trying to buy her out, buy Nicole out, in Exhibit 91. What did you mean by that? A: I think it was during that period of time that I had discussed with her or I had sent her or discussed with her this letter about the prenuptial agreement. Q: Whose idea was that? A: Mine. Q: Okay. Did Nicole respond to these letters? A: She wrote me two letters, I believe. Q: Do you have them? A: No. Q: Have you seen them since you went to jail? A: No. Q: What did her letters say, if you can remember? A: How she was disappointed in how the night went and how she had been trying so hard, and she apologized also, and tone-wise almost what I wrote to her. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. The next document I am going to mark is 93. It's an agreement. MR. ROBERT BAKER: You've got to get better copies. [Plaintiffs' Exhibit 93 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.) BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Is this the agreement that you offered Nicole? A: I believe so. Q: Whose handwriting is this agreement? A: I don't know. Looks like it may be Skip Taft. Q: You authorized Taft to write this on your behalf? A: Yes. Q: Let me -- Whose -- Was it your idea or Taft's idea, by the way? A: Mine. Q: And did you discuss it with Nicole before you offered it to her? A: I think so. Q: And what did she say? A: I didn't think it mattered to her one way or the other, but this letter was more for me than it was for her. Q: Okay. And do you know when she signed this document? A: A lot later. Q: Do you know why? A: I have no idea. MR. PETROCELLI: I will mark as the next exhibit a better copy of this document, 94, plus an attachment. (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 94 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.) BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Take a look at Exhibit 94, Mr. Simpson, and the second letter from Nicole to Skip, who I take to be Skip Taft, stating: "It has taken me until now to sign this agreement. Until recently, I didn't even think we'd reconcile. Things look good -- in fact -- better than they've looked in the long time. Please send a copy to Bruce Clemens and to me. Thanks, Nicole." And the last n August 8, 1989 letter from Taft to Clemens transmitting Nicole's signed document. Do you see that? A: Yes. Q: Okay. Now, between January of '89 and August of 1989 when Nicole signed the document, were you separated from her? A: No. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Except for the times that we've already discussed, the three days -- MR. PETROCELLI: Three-day period. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Right. THE WITNESS: Yes. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Were you having difficulties working through the incident that occurred on New Year's Eve? MR. ROBERT BAKER: I think we've gone through this in some detail. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: What I am focusing on here obviously is the statement by Nicole that she didn't think "we'd ever reconcile," and she underlines the word "Never," and I am wondering whether it causes you now to remember -- A: What? Q: -- anything more than what you've already told me about this incident. A: No. We never separated. We lived together -- , we took trips together that spring. Q: But as far as you were concerned, the incident was behind you within a couple of days after it occurred. Right? A: As far as I was concerned, the incident was -- would never be behind us, but we went on with our lives a couple of days after. I mean, we ended up back together and we took some trips together, and we continued on with our lives. But I was going to therapy, and we were going to therapy together, so the incident was still very much alive in our consciousness. Q: Did you ever talk to Nicole about why she hadn't signed the agreement? A: No. Q: Why it was taking her time to sign it? A: No. It was up to her. Q: Okay. And did you and she ever have discussions about her personal safety? A: No. Q: And your assuring her personal safety? A: Other than this? MR. ROBERT BAKER: You mean assuring her personal safety vis-a-vis O.J.? MR. PETROCELLI: Yes. THE WITNESS: No. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: That came up with Dr. Kittay, did it not? A: You'd have to ask Dr. Kittay. MR. PETROCELLI: Next is Exhibit 95. Exhibit 95 is the nolo contendere plea to the misdemeanor of spousal abuse plus some related documents. [Plaintiffs' Exhibit 95 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.) BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Even though Nicole didn't press charges, the prosecutors brought a complaint against you. Is that right? A: Yes. Q: And you pled nolo contendere to the charge of spousal abuse. Correct? A: Yes. Q: And you received what as a penalty? A: Basically community service time Q: How many hours? A: I don't know. Q: Did you perform them? A: Yes. Q: And you also went to see Burton Kittay? A: That's correct. Q: Okay. And Nicole came with you? A: Maybe once or twice she was a part of it, but yes. Not always. Q: Now, in MR. Kittay's letter here, which is a part of this attachment, is a letter to Howard Weitzman dated April 3, 1989. Weitzman was your lawyer in connection with this spousal abuse proceeding. Right? Is that right? A: Pardon me? Q: Weitzman was your lawyer? A: Yes. Q: Kittay writes that you have expressed statements to him assuring the safety of Nicole. A: Pardon me? Q: Do you see that on the second page there? A: Second Q: Kittay's letter. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Burton Kittay's letter. THE WITNESS: Yes. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: And then on the next page. Mr. Simpson, in number 6 and 7 at the bottom, you see you have promised your wife's safety. Do you see that? A: Yes. Q: Now, did you and Nicole have discussions about this -- A: No. Q: -- about her safety? A: No. Q: It was never an issue? A: No. That's what this letter [Indicating] was about. Q: Excuse me? A: That's what this letter [Indicating] was about. Q: You're referring to the agreement? A: Yes. Q: What do you mean by that? A: That's what the letter was about. Q: How does -- The letter provides a financial disincentive to you to hit her in the future. Is that right? A: Yes. Q: And that's how you assured her safety. Right? A: Well, that's MR. ROBERT BAKER: Now, you mean -- THE WITNESS: What I gave to her. MR. ROBERT BAKER: -- in connection with this going to therapy and the other things that he's testified to? THE WITNESS: Yes. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did you tell Dr. Kittay anything different than what you've testified to in this deposition about what happened that evening? THE WITNESS: I don't know if I can talk about what Dr. Kittay and I talked about. MR. ROBERT BAKER: No. You don't have to. You don't have to discuss anything that Dr. Kittay and you talked about other than what's set forth in the letter. MR. PETROCELLI: Well, it pretty much covers everything, MR. Baker. MR. ROBERT BAKER: I don't agree with you. He doesn't describe the incident at all, unless I missed it, MR. Petrocelli. MR. PETROCELLI: Well, it's all about the incident, though. MR. ROBERT BAKER: He doesn't describe the incident, and he doesn't have to -- your question went to that incident. MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah. Q: I want to know what exactly you told the doctor about what happened that night. MR. ROBERT BAKER: And I instruct him not to answer that question based upon the psychotherapist patient privilege. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Dr. Kittay writes that you intend to remain in therapy for an extended period of time. Did you? A: Yes. Q: How long were you in therapy all told? A: I don't think I ever stopped. I just would call him from time to time as I -- pertaining to when I felt that I needed another perspective, as I stated in the video. Q: How many times did you consult him with respect to spousal abuse issues? A: I think once we -- MR. ROBERT BAKER: You can tell the number of times. MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah. THE WITNESS: I think once we went beyond -- once it was beyond the court, whatever the court thing was, I continued to see him, and at that point it wasn't about spousal abuse. It was just from time to time when I needed another perspective on whatever was happening. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Okay. Do you know how many sessions you had pursuant to the court's order? A: No. Q: Okay. I would like to show you this other document here called "Antenuptial Agreement." [Plaintiffs' Exhibit 96 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.) BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: This is the prenuptial agreement or the antenuptial agreement that you and Nicole entered into prior to marriage? A: I believe so. Q: Okay. And is this the antenuptial agreement that Nicole was trying to invalidate by inventing claims of spousal abuse? A: I believe so. Q: Okay. Do you have any basis of -- Withdrawn. Do you know how she was going to attempt to invalidate this agreement by inventing claims of abuse? A: It had something to do with this letter and retroactively -- I don't know. It was an aborted attempt that never really got much breath. Q: But the letter that you gave her said that if you ever hit her after the date of that letter A: Uh-huh. Q: -- then the prenuptial agreement would be torn up. Right? A: Uh-huh. Q: And the prenuptial agreement was Exhibit 96. Correct? A: Correct. Q: So all she had to do was invent one episode after the date of the February 1989 agreement. Correct? A: Well, she would have to prove it. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, you're asking him to -- THE WITNESS: She would have to prove it. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: She would have had to prove it. Exactly. A: Yeah. Q: Do you know why she made up a number of incidents that are dated long before -- MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't -- BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: -- February of 1989? MR. ROBERT BAKER: We've been through this, and it calls for speculation, and don't answer that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Do you have an understanding as to why pre-February 1989 incidents were invented -- MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't -- you are not going to -- BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: -- in the course of these divorce proceedings? MR. ROBERT BAKER: You are not going to answer that. You've gone through that, and vou are asking him to speculate, and -- MR. PETROCELLI: I am not asking -- MR. ROBERT BAKER: -- his opinion is irrelevant to any -- MR. PETROCELLI: But what if somebody told him? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well. You want more hearsay? You didn't get enough from Faye Resnick's depo? MR. PETROCELLI: Faye has a lot of direct admissions from Mr. Simpson. MR. ROBERT BAKER: We'll see. MR. PETROCELLI: You are not going to let him answer? MR. ROBERT BAKER: No. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. The next document is Exhibit 97. [Plaintiffs' Exhibit 97 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.] BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Have you ever seen this document before? A: I don't recall. Q: Do you know what it is? A: No. Q: Do you know whether Nicole was keeping a diary at any time during your marriage? A: I don't believe so. Q: Is this one of the documents you saw in jail? A: Now that I see these dreams, I'm pretty sure I did. Q: Excuse me? A: Now that I see this little thing with dreams here, I think -- I think I did. Q: And that would have been the first time you saw this? A: Yes. Q: Go to the third his. It's -- the fourth ally. On the side it says "3139." A: What does it say? Q: "3139." Right over here (Indicating). MR. ROBERT BAKER: You've got it right here [Indicating]. MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah. Q: On the left side there, Mr. Simpson, it says, middle of the page, "Saturday was worse. O.J. picked us up in Cabo. Sunday was a blowup." Underneath that, "Painful, painful week." Do you see that? A: "Saturday was worse. O.J. picked us up" -- I Q: "In Cabo." A: I don't know what this would be referring to. Q: You have no recollection of that event? A: What do you mean by picking them up in Cabo? Is this when they came down, when Nicole followed us down to Cabo? Q: I don't know when this is. That's why I'm asking you. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, don't speculate, O.J. THE WITNESS: That's the only time MR. ROBERT BAKER: O.J., just don't speculate. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: What's the only time? A: Pardon me? The only time I recall them arriving at Cabo that I wasn't there may have been that time. Q: April '93 when she came with Faye and the children? A: She did come to Cabo once in -- she did one year in '94, I believe, come to Cabo later than I did, but I don't know. I can't read this, so I can't -- if I could read it all, I probably could help you. Q: Did Nicole used to talk to her -- talk to you about her dreams? A: I think, she read something, and they told them to write down her dreams, I believe. Q: Do you know when that was? A: In my mind that was the therapy she went to that when she came out of -- I'm speculating. I'm sorry. I'm speculating. Q: What time frame are you referring to? A: Before we got back together is what I'm speculating to, but I -- Q: The therapy that she was in? A: Yeah. It seems like the guy told her to write her dreams down or something or she read it somewhere. I just kind of recall that going on. Q: Go to the last his -- or next to last page. It says on the left side, "I believe however, that O.J. needs to learn" -- A: Next to the last page? Q: Yeah. A: Where? Q: Right over here (Indicating). A: All right. Q: It says, "I believe however, that O.J. needs to learn how to take space also. He is still very possessive, obsessive and controlling." Do you agree that you were possessive in your relationship with Nicole? MR. ROBERT BAKER: And you're inserting that that means that he was possessive, obsessive with her. Right? That's the tone of your question -- MR. PETROCELLI: Yes. MR. ROBERT BAKER: -- the import of your question? MR. PETROCELLI: Yes. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, I don't think that says that at all. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Were you? A: I don't believe so, not the first two, no. Q: Were you obsessive with Nicole? A: I don't believe so at all. Q: Controlling.? A: I think I'm a controlling person, period. Q: And you were controlling with Nicole, too. Right? A: I think in my life, in my space, I like my space the way I like my space. Q: My question was whether you were also controlling with Nicole. A: No. Q: What were you -- Well, you're controlling generally but not with Nicole. Is that what you're saying? A: Yeah, I think in general that I like my space. I like things the way I like things, and people who come into my life tend to conform to the way I do things. Q: Did Nicole conform? A: Yes. Not the last year we were together, but certainly before, she did, yes. Q: By last year "[you] were together," what do you mean? A: The last year we're together I wouldn't let her move in, so consequently she had her space to do whatever she wanted to do. Q: 1993 to '94? A: Yes. Yes. Q: Okay. And you were not obsessive towards her. Is that right? A: No. Well, I may have been obsessive in that I bought her too many things, but outside of that -- I would be the same way with any girl in my life. Q: Okay. Mother's Day of 1994. A: Uh-huh. Q: Did you go down to see Nicole without being invited? A: No. Q: You went to Sean's communion on that Saturday? A: Yes. Q: And then Mother's Day was the next day? A: Yes. Q: And did Nicole ask you to come down and join the family? A: Yes. We had a date -- we had a Saturday night date. Q: Now, that Saturday Nicole -- apparently you got there really early in the morning Saturday morning -- A: Yes. Q: -- after that incident on the freeway. Right? A: Yes. Q: Now, on that Saturday you and Nicole were arguing at her mother's house. Right? A: No. Q: Nicole left to go home while you were out getting your car washed. Is that right? A: No. Nicole went to my place to sleep while I went and bought Mother's Day gifts for Judy, Denise, Dominique and Nicole. Q: And when you got back to the Brown residence, Nicole wasn't there. Right? A: She was at my place sleeping. Q: And the kids were with the Browns. Right? A: Yes. Q: And then you went over to -- you went over to the condo with Nicole. Right? A: Yeah, Q: She was there sleeping. Right? A: Yes. Q: And you wanted to go out that evening. Right? A: No. I kinda went back and forth. I took a nap, and then I woke her up at 8:00 o'clock to go to dinner. Q: Now, she said she didn't want to go out. [1I Right? A: No. She got dressed and she got to the door, and then she freaked out. Q: Okay. Didn't you get on the bed while she was lying on it and straddle her? A: No. Q: And sort of force her? A: Definitely not. Q: Shoulders down, against -- pinned her against the bed? A: Definitely not. Q: Did you have an argument with her on the bed while you were upset because she didn't want to go out? A: No. She -- we got to the door, the car was warming up, and she freaked out and said, "Look at me. I'm having a breakdown. I can't do this." And I said, "What's the matter with you?" And we talked, and she calmed down, and we went to her mother's house to drop off the night stuff for the kids. Then we went to the restaurant and had dinner. Q: And there was absolutely no incident where you had mounted her or straddled her on the bed? A: None. Q: When you awakened her to go out, was she amenable to going out with you? A: Yeah. She got up, took a shower and got dressed. Q: So everything was all right until you started to leave, and then all of a sudden she -- A: And all of a sudden she just freaked. She was shaking. I mean, I could visibly see that something was wrong. Q: And you had no idea why that was happening? A: Well, it was why I was slowly pulling away, because that's the way that she sounded when I was in -- from time to time when I was in Puerto Rico. Q: Now, the next day you went to the Browns' for Mother's Day. Right? A: Yes. Q: Were relations between Nicole and you good that day.? A: Yeah, things were -- it was -- that's the strange thing about it: Things were great that day. Q: There was no tension? A: None. We were laughing. There was some book that Judy had bought for Nicole, and we were all reading it saying, "This is you, Nicole. This is you Nicole," and it was really a fun day. MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Just answer his questions, O.J. THE WITNESS: Okay. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: As of May 8, 1994, which is this Mother's Day, did Nicole have a will? A: Yes. Q: When had she made that will? A: Just about every time we took a trip, she wrote out what she had, what she was doing and who she was leaving things with. That started very early in our relationship, once she started obtaining things, and I think Lou was trying to get her to sign, because I remember seeing something -- Lou was talking to her that day even about some -- because she bought the house, and Nicole had been putting something off and putting it off, and Lou was trying to get her to fill out something for a will, and to my knowledge Nicole never did. But I'm told that there's a signed will somewhere, but I'm also told that -- MR. ROBERT BAKER: Never mind. Never mind. THE WITNESS: Okay. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: But you're also told what? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. MR. PETROCELLI: You cut him off in the middle of a sentence. MR. ROBERT BAKER: I sure did cut him off in the middle of it. MR. PETROCELLI: Why? He was answering the question. MR. ROBERT BAKER: He was not. He was going well beyond the question. MR. KELLY: I thought he answered the question. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: "But I'm also told" what? What are you told about this will? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. MR. PETROCELLI: Now he is responding to a question, MR. Baker. MR. ROBERT BAKER: No. He is not going to answer that question. We are not going to get into that. MR. PETROCELLI: Get into what? MR. ROBERT BAKER: We are not going to get into -- BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: What is it about this will that you know that you were going to tell me a minute ago? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that question. The will is irrelevant to any issue in this case. MR. PETROCELLI: Not if Nicole was making out a will because she feared for her life. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, you can put whatever spin you want on it, but I'm not going to let him answer that. It's irrelevant. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: How many times did Nicole make out a will to your knowledge? A: I know to my knowledge on numerous occasions when we took trips, she would write stuff down; I know to my knowledge once the kids were born, she wrote down a broad thing about who gets what, and I know to my knowledge Lou Brown had some papers that he wanted her to sign then. Q: How many wills do you know that she wrote out? A: You call them wills. They were like who would get whatever. If the plane crashed or if something happened to us, who would get what. Her thing was totally separate than mine. Q: She would write it out in her own handwriting? A: I believe so, yes. Q: And she would do this every time she took a trip? A: No. I think she would -- it was like -- I remember at one time I asked her had she upgraded her will at some point, because she -- Nicole had at one point attained a decent wealth, close to a million-dollar wealth, and I was asking her at one point had she upgraded her will, and I believe when we were splitting up, she did again. Q: Do you know why Nicole took out Arnelle and Jason in her will on May 8, 1994? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, there is no foundation for that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Do you know anything about that? A: I never knew that they were in her will. Q: So you don't know why they were taken out? A: I never knew that they were ever in any will of -- I don't know why they would be in any will of Nicole's, and I was not aware that they were ever in any will of Nicole's. Q: Did she talk to you about making a will out on that day? A: No. Well -- no. No. I just recall her dad was saying and she -- we were talking, and her dad was saying something, and I felt he wanted her to come and look at some papers, and Nicole just didn't want to do it. MR. PETROCELLI: This is a convenient time. We will break until 9:30. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Why don't we start at 10:00 because -- I can get here at 9:30. MR. PETROCELLI: That's fine. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the deposition of Orenthal James Simpson, Volume VI. The number of videotapes used was three. We are going off the record, and the time is approximately 4:44. [ENDING TIME: 4:44 P.M.] Q: Mr. Simpson, I would like to talk a little bit about your background. You grew up where? A: San Francisco. Q: And you left San Francisco when? A: 1967. Q: You went to junior college in San Francisco? A: That's correct. Q: San Francisco City College? A: That's correct. Q: And then in 1967 went off to University of Southern California? A: Yes. Q: Now, when you were a youth, were you involved in any gang fights? A: Yes. Q: Were you a participant? A: Yes. Q: Did you use a knife in any of those? A: No. Q: What weapons did you use? A: Fists. Q: Other than using your fists, did you have any -- involved in any physical confrontations with other instruments? A: I think we ran a gang off the hill once with rocks, throwing rocks at them. Q: What age -- how old were you when you were involved with gangs as a youth? A: 13, 14, 15. Q: Couple of years? A: Yeah. Q: Were you put into some institution or reform school at all? A: No. MR. ROBERT BAKER: You know, this is so remote and I've been, I think, more than lenient, but I am not going to let you ask him any more questions about when he was 13, 14, 15 years old. MR. PETROCELLI: Well, that was my last question. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Good. Good. We're on the same wavelength. MR. PETROCELLI: We're on the same wavelength on that one. Q: When you -- you went to USC for two years. Right? A: Yes. Q: And graduated in 1969? A: I didn't graduate. Q: Oh, you left school in 1969. A: Went to work, yes. Q: Okay. And you then went into the NFL as a professional football player? A: Correct. Q: And that was your employment until when? A: 1979. Q: And between 1969 and 1979 did you have any other employment besides playing professional football? A: Yes. Q: What was that? A: I couldn't name them all, but I worked for Chevrolet; I worked for RC Cola; I worked for Hertz; I did films and various other deals that came and went. Q: What did you do for these manufacturers? A: Commercials. Q: And you were a spokesperson? A: Correct. Q: Okay. To endorse their products? A: Correct. Q: Did you -- You also said you acted in some films? A: Yes. Q: How many films have you appeared in? A: I don't know. Q: Can you name them? A: A few of them. Q: Could you name them, please. A: THE CLANSMAN, TOWERING INFERNO -- MR. KELLY: I'm sorry. I can't hear you, Mr. Simpson. MR. PHILLIP BAKER: TOWERING INFERNO. THE WITNESS: CASSANDRA CROSSING, FIREPOWER, THE NAKED GUN trilogy, COCAINE AND BLUE EYES, GOLDIE AND THE BOXER, and there's others that I just can't recall. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: COCAINE AND BLUE EYES is one movie? A: Yes. Q: And what's the last one you mentioned? A: I don't know. What was the last one I mentioned? MR. KELLY: I'm sorry. I'm still not hearing you. THE WITNESS: I'm asking him a question. THE REPORTER: GOLDIE AND THE BOXER. THE WITNESS: GOLDIE AND THE BOXER. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: In any of these -- Is that it, Mr. Simpson? A: Yes. Q: Okay. In any of these roles that you played, did you use a knife? A: In the movies I just mentioned? Q: Yeah. A: Not that I recall. Q: Are there any others where you used a knife? A: In FROGMAN. Q: That's the only one? A: That I know of, yes. Q: How many TV pilots other than FROGMAN have you filmed? A: I think COCAINE AND BLUE EYES was a pilot, I believe. Q: Did you film a pilot called 1ST AND 10? A: No. Q: Did you work on that project? A: What do you mean? A pilot project of 1ST AND 10? Q: Yeah. A: No. Q: Did you have anything to do with a property called 1ST AND 10? A: Yes. Q: What? A: I acted in a series called 1ST AND 10. Q: It was a sitcom? A: Not really, no. Q: How long was it on the air? A: The years that I was on, I think we were on three or four years. I'm not sure. Q: You had a recurring role? Q: What years were those? A: In the '80s. Q: Okay. Do you know someone named Eddie Reynoso? A: No. I may have, but I don't know. Q: Now, the movies that you've acted in, that started sometime when? A: I don't understand the question. Q: When did you begin to appear in motion pictures or television films? A: 1969. Q: And that continued all the way until what point in time? A: 1993. Q: What was the last -- The last project you filmed was FROGMAN? A: '94. Yeah, '94 it would have been FROGMAN. Q: FROGMAN? A: Yes. Q: And before FROGMAN, one of THE NAKED GUNs? A: Yes. Q: Okay. Now, when did you first go to work for a television broadcasting company? A: It was '69 or '70. Q: What was the company? A: ABC. Q: And what was your job? A: I was a commentator, color commentator. Q: During the off-season? A: Yes. Q: Okay. For football games. Right? A: Not so much football. It's probably more track. I mean, I did Irish hurling, Irish football, you know, whatever. Q: And how long did you work for ABC, that first stint? A: I don't know. You know, I'm sure we can give you my -- Cathy Randa would send people my -- what do you call that? Q: Resume? A: Resume. Q: Okay, I would like to have it. A: Yeah, because I don't know all this stuff. Q: Let me just follow up generally. You don't remember when you stopped working for ABC the first stint? A: Not really, no. Q: Okay. And what was your next broadcasting job? A: I signed with NBC in the late 70s, but it wasn't really for sports, even though I would have done the Olympics if they weren't aborted in Moscow, and I may have done a Rose Bowl or so for them. I was more producing film, producing TV shows for them. Q: Which shows did you produce? A: GOLDIE AND THE BOXER, GOLDIE AND THE BOXER GO TO HOLLYWOOD. COCAINE AND BLUE EYES, DETOUR TO TERROR. Q: Are these films that you also would appear in? A: Yes. HIGH FIVE was one I didn't -- I produced and didn't appear in. It was a pilot. Q: Have you directed any film? A: No. Q: After the NBC production job, what was your next television job? A: I believe Monday night football. Q: What years were those? A: It was in the '80s. Q: In the '80s? A: Yes. Q: Okay. That was with ABC. Right? A: Yes. Q: And then after that what came next? A: NBC. Q: When was that? A: I believe it started in '89. Q: And that was still going on as of the time of Nicole's death? A: Correct. Q: Okay. Have you had any professional acting training? A: No. Q: Ever taken an acting course? A: No. Q: You ever take any courses or take any training in connection with your work as a spokesperson, an actor or commentator? A: Voice lessons. Q: You mean diction? A: Yes. My voice diction. Q: How long did you do that? A: On and off for a few years. Q: Who did you study with? A: Arthur Josephs, and I can't think of the other guy's name. I see he still uses me in his advertisement, but I can't think of his name. Q: Who taught you how to act? MR. ROBERT BAKER: There's a lot of people who say no one. Sorry, O.J. THE WITNESS: I don't know. MR. PETROCELLI: You said it, not me. THE WITNESS: I don't know. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: In the course of -- In other words, when you did your film role, you didn't have any training before that; you just showed up and they told you what to do, and you did it? A: No. They -- I read the script, and I acted like I thought the person acted. Most of my acting roles are not too far from me, you know, so pretty much played myself personality-wise. Q: And worked with the directors of those various films? A: Correct. Q: And other actors on them? A: Yes. Q: Okay. Now, are there any other companies that you've endorsed products for besides Chevrolet, Hertz and RCA? A: I'm sure there are. MR. KELLY: I think it was RC Cola. MR. PETROCELLI: Oh, RC Cola. You're right. Q: Any others come to mind? A: No. Q: Did you have contracts with these companies I just mentioned? A: Yes. Q: And did you have contracts for these other companies for sort of long-term sponsorship or endorsement work? A: I don't know if it was long-term but those are the ones I recall that had any kind of length of time. Q: As of the time Nicole died, which endorsement contracts were still in effect? A: Hertz. Q: Was that the only one? A: Basically, yes. I don't recall. There may be something that I'm not thinking about right now, but that's basically it. Q: Was there any economic fallout as a result of the 1989 incident? A: No. Q: Did any of the companies threaten to cancel contracts? A: No. Q: Did they discuss that with you? A: No. No. No. Q: Was there any suggestion by them that there might be a problem with one of your contracts A: No. Q: -- during that period of time? A: No. Q: And did the subject come up at all in your dealings with these companies in the year 1989? A: I probably discussed it with the chairman of Hertz. Q: And what did you tell him? A: I don't recall. Q: Was he concerned about your public image? A: I don't know. He talked to Nicole, because we went on a vacation with them later that month, so Q: Month of January? A: Yeah, at the end of January we went on vacation with him. Q: What's his name? A: Frank Olson. Q: Excuse me? Frank Olson? A: Yes. Q: Okay. We are having trouble hearing you this morning, and I'm very close to you. Was there any economic fallout as a result of your divorce proceedings in 1992? A: No. Q: Was there any discussion with any of your employers or companies for whom you were endorsing products, about your divorce? A: I probably alerted them that I was getting a divorce, yes. Q: Did you discuss with Nicole that if she testifies in the divorce case, it might hurt you economically? A: No. Q: The subject never came up? A: No. Q: And did she bring that up with you.? A: No. I wanted her to testify. Q: Why did you want her to testify? A: Because I wanted the truth to come out. Q: About what A: Whatever they were alleging. Q: Isn't it the case that when she was about to testify, you took her into the hallway and insisted that she not? A: No. The day she was supposed to testify, she didn't show up. She was in contempt of court; didn't show up. Q: And is it your testimony that you had no conversation with her at all or through your lawyers with her to not testify? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. He is not going to answer about what his lawyers did. MR. PETROCELLI: What his lawyers said to Nicole or her lawyers. MR. ROBERT BAKER: He not going to answer -- if it went from him to the lawyers, he is not going to answer that question. MR. PETROCELLI: I don't want that one. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Okay. You want just if you know what your lawyers said to Nicole or her lawyers relative to her testifying, you can answer. THE WITNESS: I don't think we ever said anything to her about testifying. I know I didn't. I told her, you know, "You can't not testify," when she didn't show up. "You have to show up." BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: You said I think yesterday and also in your video that if Nicole did not file for divorce, you would have. A: Yes. Q: Why is that? A: Because I didn't want to go a long period of time, and I was paying would have to pay temporary alimony. I didn't want to go a year and then decide we wanted to divorce and then go another year trying to get the divorce. So I just said -- I figured it would take a year almost, I was told it would take a year almost to get a divorce as it were, and I figured in that length of time, if we didn't want a divorce, we wouldn't; and if we did, at least it's over. Q: Well, if Nicole had indicated she did not want a divorce in January- February, are you saying you were going to file anyway? A: I gave her an ultimatum: Either she files or I was going to file. Q: So you made up your mind you were going to get divorced one way or the other? A: Well, not get divorced. File and get the process going. Q: And then see if it works out during the process? A: Yeah. Yeah. During the process if we didn't, we didn't. Q: Nicole was having an affair with someone at around this time, wasn't she? A: I found out, yes, that she was, yes. Q: You were trying to find out before the actual separation. Isn't that true? A: What do you mean, "separation"? Q: When you and Nicole separated when she left Rockingham A: Yes. Q: Before she left Rockingham you were trying to find out from her friends if she was having an affair. Right? A: I asked her. Q: And you asked her friends, too. Right? A: No. I asked her. Q: You asked Cora Fishman. A: I asked Cora Fishman much later. Q: You did not ask Cora Fishman before Nicole moved out of Rockingham whether Nicole was having an affair with anyone? A: That's correct. Q: Okay. And the only person you asked was Nicole? A: Yes. Q: And she told you what? A: At that time she told me no. Q: And you later found out that was untrue. Right? A: Correct. Q: You found out she was having an affair with Alessandro. Right? A: That's what she told me, yes. Q: And when did you first find out? A: When she was trying to get back with me. Q: In 1993. Right? A: Yes. Q: And you didn't know before then. Right? A: No. Q: You were -- before Nicole moved out of Rockingham you were upset that this fellow Alessandro was coming over to the house and eating your expensive caviar and drinking your champagne. Isn't that right? A: No, that's incorrect. Q: Didn't you say that to Cora Fishman? A: After -- this was a year later I said that to Cora Fishman. After I found out they had and affair. I was a little put out that he was at my house on Christmas having champagne and caviar with me and they had been having an affair. Q: This is a conversation you had with Cora in 1993? A: Yes, after I found out that there was an affair. Up to then I didn't know that there was an affair. Q: Okay. So Nicole's infidelity had nothing to do with your splitting up with her. Right? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Now, what are you talking about? BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: In other words, when you and Nicole split up, you had no state of mind that she was having an affair with anyone. Is that right? A: In 19 -- Q: '92. A: In '92 she instigated that. I didn't instigate that. Q: Yeah, I know. But when she instigated it, you didn't have any knowledge or information that she was having an. affair then or ever. Is that right? A: Correct. Q: Okay. Now, after the 1989 incident you and Nicole had several arguments about your infidelity. Is that right? A: After? Q: Yeah. A: No. Q: After January 1, 1989 A: No. Q: -- you and Nicole have a single argument or discussion about your being unfaithful? A: I don't know what she may have talked to the psychologist about but we didn't discuss it after that, no. Q: -- After the '89 incident until the time that she moved out. there was no conversation between the two of you about your seeing other women or being unfaithful. Is that right? A: Correct. Q: Okay. Were you faithful during that period of time? MR. ROBERT BAKER: You don't have to answer that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Were you seeing any other women during that time from January '89 to the time that you and Nicole split up in early '92? MR. ROBERT BAKER: You don't have to answer that either. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: You said on your video that Nicole knew how to push your buttons. What did you mean by that? A: Well, I think people who have been together a long time, they know each other pretty well, you know, push buttons. I don't know. She knows that I don't like leaving clothes around, and if she's upset, she leaves her clothes around. You know, just little things. It was nothing really particularly, but I think people know -- I would imagine your wife knows how to get on your nerves, and you probably know how to get on her nerves. Q: How did Nicole get on your nerves besides not being neat and orderly? A: I don't know. Nicole was not a communicator at times. Sometimes she'd vent but not discuss, I think probably more than anything bothered me. Q: That personality trait? A: Yes. Q: Anything else? A: Nothing I can think of right now. I'm sure -- Q: And how did you press her buttons? A: She hated the fact that I'm a leaver. You know, I will take off at times, and that would bother her, if she was venting at me and I would just take off. I think more than anything in the years we were together, that's the thing that she expressed to me that irritated her the most. Q: Did she ever express to you that you were too controlling for her? A: Yes. Q: And that you were too possessive of her? A: What do you mean "for her'? She just thought I was a controlling a person. Q: Controlling -- She told you that. Right? A: Yes. Q: Okay. And did she tell you you were obsessive towards her? A: No. Q: Or possessive? A: No. Q: When Nicole got mad at you would she scream at you? A: At times, yes. Q: Was it a frequent occurrences A: No. Q: Okay. Would she insult you? A: I mean, in the years that I've known her, I believe she has, yes. Q: And would she use profanity towards you.? A: At times. Q: Now, when she did that, did you feel like hitting her? A: No. I'd leave. Q: Okay. Did you scream back at her? A: At times. Q: And use profanity. A: At times. Q: Did you break things? A: No. See, that's something that I don't do. Q: You never threw anything on the floor or smashed photographs or broke things. Is that right? A: No. No. Q: How many times in your relationship with Nicole when you were having an argument with her did you find yourself out of control? MR. ROBERT BAKER: If ever. THE WITNESS: To me, when I think of '89 when I was trying to get her out of the room that's something that I wouldn't have normally done. So in a sense I felt that I was not in control the way I would have liked to have been. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: And what about any other incidents? A: No. Q: What about 1993? Were you out of control then? A: No. Q Okay. And how many times in your relationship with Nicole did you observe in your view that she was out of control? A: I can't answer that. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Are you talking just about arguments, not about when she was having her nervous MR. PETROCELLI: Yes, arguments. Q: Arguments with you. A: I couldn't -- I couldn't -- I'm sure there were times that I thought, you know, she needed to slow down or at least to stop and sit and think about what she was saying, but I can't specifically name them Q: Because they're too numerous? A: No. I just can't specifically -- you know, it's just spread out over a lot of years. Q: But you told me that in your case there was only one time. A: Uh-huh Q: Now I am asking about Nicole. Are you saying that it was more than once? A: Well, when you say "she was out of control" Q: Yeah. A: -- I mean, my interpretation of that may be different than anyone else. I would leave whenever I thought it was mindless, so in a sense to me the situation was out of control and I'd leave. Q: How many times did that occur? A: I can't -- I have absolutely no idea. Q: More than a dozen? A: Probably over the years, yes. Q: More than a hundred? A: No, certainly not, no. Q: Somewhere between twelve and a hundred.? A: Yes. Q: Can you make it any closer than that? A: No. Q: Other than Alessandro, are you aware of any extramarital affairs that Nicole had? MR. ROBERT BAKER: You don't have to answer that. it's been asked and answered, and I think MR. PETROCELLI: You are instructing him not to answer? MR. ROBERT BAKER: I am. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Since we know Mr. Fuhrman has the right of privacy, I think Mr. Simpson has as well. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Was sex an important part of your relationship with Nicole? A: Yes. Q: And you enjoyed having sex with her? A: Yes. Q: Did you ever have violent or rough sex with her? A: No. Q: Did Nicole ever complain to you about your need for excessive attention or admiration? A: No. Q: That subject ever come up? A: No. Q: Did Nicole ever tell you that you were a manipulator? A: Say it to me? Q: Yes. A: No. Q: Did she say you were the king of manipulation? A: No. A: Okay. She said it to others, I take it, about you? A: I heard Kato say that in a deposition. Q: Is that the first time you ever heard that? A: I may have read it in a deposition of Kato's before, too. Q: Have you always been close to your mother? A: Yes. Q: Is that the closest relationship with a woman that you've ever had in your life? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, I don't know what you mean by "close." I mean. If you're talking just on an emotional basis MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah. MR. ROBERT BAKER: -- ask the question. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: That's what I mean. A: You know, I can't answer that. I had a different type of emotional relationship with Nicole and Marquerite that was as intense and satisfying as I've had with anyone. A mother is a whole different thing. Q: You said in the video that your mother is your most favorite person in the world. Is that right? A: Yes. Q: And was that true throughout your life? A: Yes. Q: Did your mom raise you? A: Yes. Q: Was your father present in the home? A: Not in the home, no. Q: During your entire childhood? MR. ROBERT BAKER: You don't have to answer that. This is way too remote. MR. PETROCELLI: You've instructed him? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yes. MR. PETROCELLI: Let me mark this and make it a little easier. This is a transcript of the 911 call. 98. [Plaintiffs' Exhibit 98 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.] BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Can you turn to ine 15, where Nicole says, "Then he came and he practically knocked my upstairs door down." Is that true? A: No. Q: You didn't knock the upstairs door down? A: No. Q: Or did you bang on it really hard? I knocked on the door. I think that's on the tape, isn't it? This is a transcript of the tape? MR. ROBERT BAKER: This is the other one. THE WITNESS: Pardon me? MR. ROBERT BAKER: This is the other one. THE WITNESS: You hear the whole thing on the tape. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: I want -- I am asking you what's true and what's false that Nicole said. A: You listen to the tape, and you'll hear that that's false. I knock on the door and asked, "Why is the door locked?" And she's talking to the police officer on the tape that I heard saying, "He wants to know why the door's locked, and then he went back downstairs." Q: Did you pound on that door? A: I knocked on the door. Q: Knocked or pound? A: I would say knocked. Q: Okay. Did you knock real hard? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Yes or no? A: I don't recall. Q: Okay. Did she try to get you out of the bedroom because the kids were sleeping in there? A: I never went in the bedroom. The door was locked. Q: Okay. Did she try to get you to go downstairs because the kids were sleeping upstairs? A: I would say no. Q: Okay. Now, Nicole says on line 20 that you "wanted somebody's phone number," and she gave you a phone book. A: Yes. Q: Is that true? A: Yes. Q: What phone number did you want? A: I wanted phone numbers of this girl that Nicole -- of a girl named Alex and of Keith Zlomsowitzh. Q: And why did you want their numbers? A: Because I wanted to know what was going on with these people around my kids. Q: You were going to call them up? A: Yes. Q: Did you.? A: No. Q: Did you get the phone numbers? A: No. Q: Okay. Did you have an argument with Nicole that day about her having a former boyfriend's number on her speed dial? A: No. Q: Joseph Perulli in particular? A: No. Q: That never came up? A: No. Q: On any other day did that come up? A: No. Q: On ine 10, Mr. Simpson, it says, "I had to read this bullshit all week in the National Enquirer." A: Yeah. Q: That statement is attributed to you. You said that. Right? A: I may have. Q: And what was the Enquirer article about? A: I think -- I believe the situation they were talking about this whole this whole -- because I didn't -- I was in -- I don't know what it's about. but it wasn't about that week. It was about you. Right? A: Yes. Q: And something in that article upset you.? A: Yes. Q: And what was it? A: It was just something some of her friends I were saying about her -- First of all, I didn't want to be in the article, but it wasn't this week. This was something that had happened previous to this. Q: Well, okay. Answer this question first, and then I will get back to the timing issue: What was it in the article about you that upset you? A: It was just this implication that I Nicole -- O.J. was begging Nicole to get back together and Nicole didn't want to, and her friends were saying O.J. wanted her to move back in the house but Nicole didn't want to, and it was just so the opposite of that, so -- it was just so 180 degrees opposite of that, that that bothered me. Q: To whom were those comments attributed in the Enquirer? A: I don't know, but I'm sure it was one of her friends. To a friend of Nicole's, is who it was attributed to. Q: And had that article come out in the week before this October 25 incident? A: No. Q: When had it come out? A: I think earlier, maybe August. Q: Why were you reading about it all week? A: Well, I don't think that's correct, the way this is. I think we were venting about a lot of things, you know. This argument started about one thing and, like most arguments, you go into tons of things in the midst of an argument so... Q: Okay. In cole states at line 15 that you were going -- that, quote, "He's going" -- excuse me. "He's fucking going nuts." Is that a fair description of your behavior? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: In your mind, were you going nuts? A: No. Q: Okay. How many arguments had you had with Nicole in the course of your entire relationship with her when you were screaming and yelling as loud as you were on October 25, 1993? A: That may have been the best one. Q: So in your entire relationship you don't think it ever happened? A: No, not like this, no. Q: Okay. I am reading from a brief your lawyers filed in the criminal case. It's with regard to this incident. It says you kicked in a French door to gain entry. Is that true? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. You asked him that 15 times. He is not going to answer it again. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did you kick in a door to gain entry? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer it. Don't answer the question. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: What I want to understand, Mr. Simpson, is whether you had permission to get into that house from Nicole or whether you broke in without her permission. MR. ROBERT BAKER: We are not going to get back into that. You've been there and done that. MR. PETROCELLI: You don't have to make speeches. Just instruct him, and we will move on. MR. ROBERT BAKER: I didn't think that was a speech. MR. PETROCELLI: I don't take it personally, Mr. Baker. MR. ROBERT BAKER: I understand that. I'm not trying to have you take it personally, Mr. Petrocelli. MR. PETROCELLI: I know, but, you know, you make a lot of comments about things that I do that are not true, and I don't feel the need to respond, and so maybe it would be better if you didn't make them. MR. PHILLIP BAKER: What comments are those, Dan? MR. PETROCELLI: See the above. Q: At any time from 19 ---January 1992 until the end of Nicole's life,did you ever say to Nicole that you have no reason to live now? A: No. Q: Did you ever say that to anyone? A: No. Q: Were you ever so despondent about your relationship -- A: Oh, I -- No, no. I didn't. Q: Up to the time Nicole died. A: No. No. Q: Were you ever so despondent about your relationship with Nicole that you told someone that you didn't want to live or didn't have any reason to live? A: No. Q: Did you at any time ever say to Nicole -- Withdrawn. During the last six months of Nicole's life, did you at any time say to her words to the effect, "I don't know what I'm going to do if I see you with another man"? A: No. Q: Did you ever say that to her? A: No. Q: Did you ever say that to Judy Brown? A: No. Q: Did you ever say at any time during the last six months of Nicole's life: "If I ever see you with another man, I'll kill you"? A: No. Q: Did you ever say that at all? A: No. MR. ROBERT BAKER: You're up, candy man. MR. PETROCELLI: No. not quite. MR. PHILLIP BAKER: You want to take a break to call Steve? MR. PETROCELLI: No. Let me mark as the next exhibit in order, 99, this letter. [Plaintiffs' Exhibit 99 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.] BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Take a look at Exhibit 99. Do you recognize this document, Mr. Simpson? A: Yes. Q: Is this in Nicole's handwriting? A: Yes. Q: This is a letter to you. Right? A: Yes. Q: And is this the letter that she sent to you or gave to you in mid March of 1993? A: Yes. Q: When she delivered the tapes of the wedding and your child's birth? A: Yes. Q: What did you do with the original of this letter? A: I don't know. It's somewhere in discovery or with someone, I guess. Q: Did you respond in writing to this letter? A: No. MR. PETROCELLI: I need to find something. Take a short break. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Okay. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 11:33. [Recess.] THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 11:40. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Getting back to your background for a minute, what promotional or other videos did you make in the year 1994? A: The Playboy video, a Playboy by -- basically what it was supposed to be was a traveling man's, the lazy man's workout. Q: That's the Playboy video? A: Yeah. Q: Is that where you're shown exercising? A: Yes. Stretching basically, yes. Q: Did you keep the clothing that you wore in that video? A: No, unless it was mine. Q: Was it? A: I don't recall. Q: And what about this Juice Plus, what was that about? A: It was a concentrated -- it's where that they flash-dry juice. I couldn't drink juice because of my arthritis, but juicing is very good for you. My arthritis -- acidity in orange juice and stuff is stuff that irritated my arthritis, and this is a way that they could flash-dry it so you can get all the nutrients and things that you would get in normal juice. It was really the juice itself, it truly was oranges and, you know, carrots and everything, and it condensed into a powder and it condensed into a pill so you can -- it was equivalent -- if you take this, it's equivalent to drinking fresh juice because it was truly fresh juice. Q: You were paid by a company to promote this product? A: Yes. Q: And how long were you -- What is the name of the company? A: Juice Plus was the product. The company is National Safety Association, I think, something. I can't -- Q: What did you do for them? Went around making speeches? A: Yes, I made a few speeches for them, yes. Q: How long before Nicole's death were you involved with Juice Plus? A: I don't know. Q: More than a year? A: I don't think so. Q: Did you make any videos for them? A: I didn't really -- I don't believe so. I think they may have video'd me speaking at various events. I don't recall doing a video for them. Q: And when was the last -- A: I may have done a video. I don't recall. Q: When was the last event you spoke at for Juice Plus? A: I believe in Dallas. Q: And when was that? A: I don't know. I don't recall. Q: In 1994? A: I believe so. Q: Is that the one you saw in court? A: I believe so, yes. Q: Okay. How long have you had arthritis? A: I became aware of it -- I've had it a while, but it got intolerable probably around '90, I mean when I felt like I was being crippled by it. Q: In 1990? A: Around '90 or so. Q: Who treated it? A: I first went to Frank Jobe, and it was Frank Jobe. who was possibly the top orthopedic person, who felt it was arthritis more than what he could do, and he sent me to Bertram Maltz. Q: In the early '90s? A: Yes. Q: And was Dr. Maltz treating your arthritis up until the time of Nicole's death? A: Yes, basically. yes. Q: And what treatment did he prescribe for you? A: The main thing he did is he started me on a medication calls Azulfidine, and I also went to a nutritionist who treated it a little differently, about me changing my diet. So I changed my diet and things got better. Q: And when did things get better? A: I mean at times. You know, right now things are better, but I do have relapses, you know. But the pain portion of it, things sometimes get better. The stiffness and everything is still there, but the pain got better. I mean, the pain was almost intolerable at one point. Q: In 1994 before you went into jail, was the pain ever intolerable? A: Maybe once or twice, but not for any length of time. Q: And did your arthritis flare up at all in June of 1994? A: Possibly, yes. Q: When? A: I couldn't say explicitly. Q: And did you have a -- was it in an acute phase on June 11 or June 12? A: Acute, I can't do anything. When it's acute, I need help to go to the restroom so I would say no. Q: Was it acute at any time in 1994? A: To that degree, not that I recall. Q: Okay. And what was the state of your arthritis condition on June 11 and June 12? A: I had traveled. When I travel -- I play a lot of golf always, but when I travel and play golf, it's -- bothers me more. So, I would say more than -- My feet were bothering me then more than almost anything, but it was -- and I had some swelling. Q: Swelling of where? A: My joints a little bit and my fingers, and my knees always a little bit. Q: You had swelling in your joints on June 11 and June 12? A: A little bit, yes. Q: Did you seek any special treatment on those days? A: I may have taken -- some days I don't take Motrin, and I probably took Motrin those days. Q: Do you remember doing so? A: I'm sure I did. Q: Were you inhibited in your ability to do any activities on June 11 and June 12th because of arthritis? A: You mean was I inhibited in doing or inhibited that I couldn't do? Q: That you couldn't do. A: I couldn't really shuffle cards. I could deal them, but I had trouble shuffling them. But that happens to me quite often. Q: You played cards both Saturday and Sunday? A: I believe so. Q: June 11 and June 12? A: I believe so. Q: Did you shuffle when it was your turn? A: I don't think I shuffled Sunday. Saturday, I don't recall. Q: Did you deal the cards? A: Yes. Q: Okay. And you played golf Saturday, Sunday and were planning to play on Monday, and Tuesday perhaps. Right? A: I try to play every day. Q: So the arthritis doesn't prevent you from playing golf. Right? A: Just handicaps my game. Q: Okay. Was your arthritis bothering your golf game on the 11th and the 12th? A: It always bothers my golf game. If I didn't have -- Q: More than usual, I mean. A: I don't know. I think the traveling and all, I was probably a little stiffer, but I travel so much that that's not unusual, so -- so, I mean, I play with the handicap. Q: Did you do anything for the swelling in your joints other than take some Motrin, perhaps? MR. ROBERT BAKER: I don't know if Motrin is for swelling. THE WITNESS: It's not. MR. ROBERT BAKER: It's for pain. MR. PETROCELLI: For pain. Well, let me rephrase the question then. Q: Did you -- other than taking some Motrin, did you do anything at all for your arthritis on June 11 and June 12? A: You know, everything -- I mean, I don't know how to answer the question because virtually everything I do, before I go play golf, stretching; sometimes I wear sleeves on my knees. I've had various -- various analgesics, and I do this all the time. So virtually everything I do is for my arthritis. Otherwise I'd get up, do a stretch and go play golf. One of the reasons I get up so early is, because of my arthritis, it takes me a longer time than most people to stretch to, you know, be able to function. Q: Did you wear sleeves on your knees on June 12? A: I may have on my left knee. Not on the 11th, I'm sure, but probably on the 12th. Q: Did you take any medications besides the ones you described? One was Motrin, and the other one was this other drug you mentioned. A: I don't think I was taking the Azulfidine during this period of time. Q: So you weren't taking any prescribed drugs at all for arthritis on June 11 and June 12. Is that right? A: I don't think so, yeah. Q: And you don't -- You may have taken some Motrin. A: I'm sure I took Motrin. Q: Okay. And did you receive any particular medical treatment for your arthritis on those two days? A: Other than the Motrin, no. Q: Is Dr. Maltz the only doctor who treated you for arthritis in the '90s? A: Other than the nutritionist. Q: What's the nutritionist's name? A: Oh, jeez. Well, I'm embarrassed. She has a line of vitamins out. Maybe ---I can't think of her name. I can get it for you easily. Q: Okay. Is there a name for the arthritis that you have? A: From what they told me, I have -- well whatever is normal arthritis that I think many athletes might sustain, and then there's rheumatoid, and I was showing signs of rheumatoid arthritis. Q: When did you start showing signs Of rheumatoid arthritis? A: You'd have to ask them. I just went by what Dr. Jobe and what Dr. Bertram Maltz told me. Q: Okay. Did you tell Nicole in May or June of 1994 -- Withdrawn. Did you have a conversation with Nicole in May or June of 1994 when she said in words or in substance to you, "How dare you buy my friends. How Come you're buying my friends?" A: In substance -- when she called me and yelled at me, in substance that's what she was saying. Q: Did she also say to you, "You took my friends away. You took my family"? A: No. Q: She never said anything like that to you -- A: No. Q: -- in those same conversations? A: No. Q: Okay. And what did you understand her to mean when she was talking about your buying her friends? A: I'd say in substance -- I don't think she used that word, but in substance she was saying something about "Leave my friends alone" and stuff, and I didn't know. Q: Had you just entered into any financial deals with any of her friends? A: I don't understand the question. Q: Had you made any business dealings with any of her friends in the three months before she died? A: Well, Christian I consider my friend also, and Christian performed a service for me and he was paid for that service. Q: When did you make this deal with Christian? A: I can't say that we made a deal. He and I three or four months previous to this started working on this possible -- a possible project, yeah. I would say we started about three, four months before June. Q: Was that the Playboy video? A: Uh-huh. Q: Yes? A: Yes. Q: So Christian was involved in that? A: Yes. Q: And he got paid? A: Yes. Q: Who paid him.? A: I did. Q: How much did you pay him? A: $5,000, which was just sort of a -- $5,000. Q: When did you pay him the $5,000? A: Probably in May. Q: In -- A: After I did the video. Q: -- 1994? A: Yes. Q: Was that the first business dealing you had with Christian Reichardt? A: You know, it depends how you look at it. He did a lot of -- I went to his office often, so, you know, if that's business, that was business. Q: Was that the first time you paid him any money, A: I just can't recall if we paid him for helping -- he -- I don't know if I paid him or if he did it as a friend for some -- you know, some chiropractic work that he did for me. Q: Was that the first time you recall paying him any money.? A: Yes. Q: Okay. Did Nicole say to you in May or June of 1994, "If you really want this marriage to work out, you're gonna have to go to therapy to control your anger"? A: No. Q: Anything like that? A: No. Q: Did she ask you to go see a therapist in May or June of 1994? A: No. Q: Did you see a therapist in May or June of 1994? A: Yes. Q: This is after you and she split up on Mother's Day. Right? A: Yes. Q: You saw Burt Kittay? A: I talked to Burt. Q: Is that the therapist you're talking about? A: Yeah. Q: You talked to him on the phone? A: Yes. Q: How many times? A: I don't know. Q: This is between Mother's Day and Nicole's death. A: I don't know. Q: More than once? A: I don't think so, but possibly. Q: Were these professional consultations or just friendly conversations? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, when you say you talked to a therapist -- MR. PETROCELLI: They could be talking to play golf. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Okay. If there is anything about psychotherapy, that's what he wants to know. THE WITNESS: Possibly. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: You're not -- Excuse me. You're not sure? A: Any conversation I may have had with him would have been in connection with Paula, so possibly. Q: Not in connection with Nicole? A: Not in connection with Nicole. Q: Did he charge you.? A: I don't know. Q: Okay. How long were the conversations? A: I don't know. I know I joined him and Cathy at lunch once, and other than that, as I said, I don't have no real memory of flat-out talking to him about -- for service. Q: Where was the lunch? A: At a place called -- I believe it's called the Marquis West. Q: Where is that? A: Right out here, over here somewhere next to his office. Q: Where is his office? A: Was on Santa Monica Boulevard. Q: And tell us about that conversation. A: I don't think I want to tell you about if it was professional conversations that he and I had. MR. ROBERT BAKER: If Cathy was there, it's waived. THE WITNESS: Yeah, well, I don't recall exactly what -- Cathy was there, and we were talking about the food, you know, and I may have asked his opinion about Paula, how to make things easier with -- you know, for Paula, what I should look for, because I knew I had hurt her before. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: It's your testimony that the -- you did not discuss at all Nicole in that conversation? A: I believe not. I may have mentioned that, you know, Nicole and I was through, but any conversation I had with him wasn't really concerning Nicole. Q: And when you were talking about Paula -- A: I may have. Now, I'm not sure if I did at all, but I'm almost positive I would have brought Paula up if Burt was there. Q: Can you tell me anything else that was said in that conversation? A: No. Q: How long was it? A: I don't know. I came; they were having lunch. and I left and they were still having lunch. Q: Is that the only time you specifically remember talking to Burt Kittay during this time frame of May and June of 1994? A: Yes. I may have talked to him on the phone once coming from Palm Springs. Q: Weekend of Memorial Day? A: Yes. Q: By the way, during that weekend did you have the children on Thursday and Monday.? A: Of what weekend? Q: Memorial Day weekend '94. A: Maybe Monday but not Thursday. I didn't have them Monday. I think Sydney came by Monday. But Thursday, no. Q: And Friday.? A: No. Q: But maybe Monday? A: Maybe Monday. Q: Who set up this meeting with Burt Kittay? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Which meeting you talking about? MR. PETROCELLI: The lunch meeting. THE WITNESS: I don't think it was set up. I think I went to the office, and Cathy said she was going to lunch with Burt, if I wanted to join them and I said if I had time I would, and I think I did spin by. They were already having lunch. I picked off their plates and left. -- BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Earlier you said that this was a conversation about professional consultation. You didn't want to describe it to me. What did you mean, "professional consultation"? MR. ROBERT BAKER: He said it may have been. THE WITNESS: It may have been. I'm not sure if I brought up Paula. I'm pretty sure I would have brought up Paula, and I may have asked for advice from him about that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: What advice? A: I'm sorry. What? Q: What advice did you ask him? A: About how to make it easier for Paula and what I should look for, because in getting back with Paula, I had hurt her before and, you know. I guess it was a trust issue. Q: When you and Paula got back together during this time frame, did you and she have any discussions about Nicole? A: No. Q: Did she say to you in words or in substance, "I'm concerned about resuming my relationship with you because I don't want to get hurt again if you leave me for Nicole again"? A: No. Q: That never came up? A: Never. Q: When you picked her up at the airport or met her at the airport -- I guess you said you surprised her -- did -- you and she had a conversation about getting back together? MR. ROBERT BAKER: We are not going back through this. I instruct him not to answer. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did you and she have a conversation about getting back together and the impact on her of your breakup with Nicole? MR. ROBERT BAKER: It's asked and answered. I am not going to allow him to go back through that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Tell me everything that you and Paula discussed concerning Nicole during the months of May and June. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Same. I'm not going to allow him to do that. Not only that, it's overbroad. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Is it your testimony that at no time before Nicole's death in the month of May and June you and Paula discussed Nicole? Is that your testimony? MR. ROBERT BAKER: That's been asked and answered also. Don't answer that either. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: When did you and Paula get back together? MR. ROBERT BAKER: We have been all through that. Don't answer that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did you and she become monogamous in May or June of 1994? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. It's been asked and answered, and it invades his right of privacy. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did Paula ever ask you if you killed Nicole? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Asked and answered. Don't answer that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: When Paula visited you during the week of June 13, did she ever discuss with you your involvement in Nicole's death? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. That's been asked and answered as well. MR. PETROCELLI: I don't agree with any of these, by the way -- MR. ROBERT BAKER: I understand. MR. PETROCELLI: -- but we will take care of it later on. MR. ROBERT BAKER: I understand. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did Paula come to visit you in prison? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Asked and answered. Don't answer that. MR. PETROCELLI: I don't think -- any of these have been asked and answered. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, he talked about it. MR. PETROCELLI: I don't think so, Mr. Baker, but -- MR. ROBERT BAKER: If I'm wrong, we will check it at the -- we will run it through the computer at the lunch break. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did you have any visits with Paula in the jail cell? A: Pardon me? Say that again. Q: Did she visit you in your jail cell? A: No. Q: Never? A: Never. Q: Well, when you were in jail, did she come to visit you? A: Yes. Q: Where? A: Attorney room. Q: Okay. Well, that's -- you understood that's what I meant, didn't you? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. You said "jail cell." BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Well, you understand what I mean. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, don't answer that. MR. PETROCELLI: I want to make sure I'm not -- he is not withholding important information on some hypertechnical interpretation of my questions. MR. PHILLIP BAKER: You want to just answer the questions. MR. PETROCELLI: I am sure he wouldn't want to mislead anyone. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't get snotty. MR. PETROCELLI: Well, you know, I think that's an inappropriate response, but we will go back. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Tough. I don't really care what you think. MR. PETROCELLI: I know you don't, and I'm not trying to please you, Mr. Baker. I am trying to do my job. MR. PHILLIP BAKER: The question was "jail cell." MR. PETROCELLI: One Baker is enough. Okay? I don't need two. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Your point is well-taken on that. MR. BREWER: It's 12:00. Do you want to just -- MR. PETROCELLI: Let me just wrap this up here on this point. Q: She visited you in the attorney room. Right? A: Yes. Q: A number of occasions. Right? A: Yes. Q: And you had many, many telephone conversations. Right? A: Yes. Q: And if any of those conversations in the jail -- in the attorney room or on the telephone, did she ask you if you killed Nicole? A: I don't ever recall her asking me that. Q: Did you tell her? A: I'm sure I did. Q: What did you tell her? A: I'm sure I did. I don't remember any specific conversations, but I think anybody who heard me speak during that time once I was arrested, I've said many, many times, "Why are they doing this to me? I didn't do this," and basically that was my attitude. Q: Did Paula ask you where you were on the evening of June 12 at any time? A: Not that I recall. Q: Did you ever ask Paula if she listened to the messages you left her on June 12? A: No. Q: Did you ever tell her to erase those messages? A: No. Q: Did you ever tell her if she could make copies of them or to retrieve them? A: No. Q: Did she ever discuss with you those messages? A: No. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. I'm prepared to keep going, but did you want to break for lunch now, Mr. Baker? MR. ROBERT BAKER: I think it was candy man that was kind of interested in groceries. No, it was Michael. MR. BREWER: It wasn't me. You were getting into colloquy, so I thought it would be a good time to break. MR. PETROCELLI: Is the lunch here? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yeah. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Well, we will stop now, and start up again in an hour and finish up. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 12:04. [At the hour of 12:04 p.m., a luncheon recess was taken, the deposition to resume at 1:04 p.m.] [At the hour of 1:15 p.m., the deposition of ORENTHAL JAMES Simpson was resumed at the same place, the same persons being present.] THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 1:15. EXAMINATION [Resumed] BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Prior to Nicole's death, did you used to keep your gates open? A: Years ago, before we got dogs. Q: When did you stop keeping your gates open? A: Probably mid '80s. Q: And when you got dogs, then you closed them up all the time? A: Well, in the beginning we didn't, but I would say probably closer to the late '80s, SPCA -- we started getting a lot of complaints, and into the '90s a lot of complaints from the SPCA, so we had to start closing up. Q: The Rockingham gate can open and close manually, can it not? A: Yes. Q: In fact, it was demonstrated on the video that you put out that it opened and closed manually. Right? A: I don't think so. Q: When you walked down the Rockingham driveway, you opened up the gate? A: Yeah, I did open it up manually. We weren't making that as any demonstration, yes. Q: Yeah. How do you make the gate work manually as opposed to automatically? A: You have to disengage a lever on the machine box. Q: Can you do anything at the location of the gate itself to take it off of -- A: Well, the machine box is over in the bushes that connects -- the arm that connects to the gate to pull it open or not. At the end of the box is a -- you can -- there's a lever you can disengage, and then it's fully manual. Q: If you're standing outside your property, can you disengage the -- A: No. Q: -- automatic feature of the gate and cause it to open and close manually? A: No. Q: It's impossible? A: Yes. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Be a great security system, wouldn't it. MR. PETROCELLI: Not unless you're the only one who knew about it. Q: The -- Do you ever keep that gate on manual when you leave the property? A: It's not been my habit to, no. Q: Have you ever done that? A: I might have in my life, yes, but I don't recall when, other than when we shot the video. Q: Was the gate used to your knowledge in a manual mode on June 12? A: I don't believe so. no. Q: Are you sure about that? A: I'm pretty sure about that, yes. Q: You recall all of your trips out the Rockingham gate and in the Rockingham gate, and do you think any of them occurred when the gate was on manual mode? A: No. Q: If you were outside your property and you wanted to get inside and you didn't have a key, how would you do that? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Are you talking about outside the physical walls of his property? MR. PETROCELLI: Yes. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Okay. I didn't know if you were talking about outside the house, because a key doesn't open the gates, is why. MR. PETROCELLI: A key opens the Rockingham gate, doesn't it? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, you've got a clicker. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. THE WITNESS: A key opens the Rockingham gate. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Oh,the Rockingham. I'm sorry. You're right, the Rockingham. THE WITNESS: So -- MR. PETROCELLI: He'll say you're right, but he won't say I'm right. MR. ROBERT BAKER: You're right, Mr. PETROCELLI. I apologize. MR. PETROCELLI: For the record. Okay. Q: What's the answer, Mr. Simpson? A: I don't know if that's ever happened to me. It has happened to me, but Justin was with us. So outside of that, it's just never happened to me. Q: What has never happened to you? A: That I was outside the gate and nobody was inside to let me in and I didn't have a key or a control. Q: Well, when you had Justin, how did you get him to open it up for you? A: Justin can -- actually, there was two bars that he can actually walk through on the gate, and then he'd go and push the gate opener. Q: And I take it you can't fit through those bars. Right? A: No. No. No. Q: Have you ever jumped any of your fences? A: Since I've owned the house? Q: Yeah. A: Yes. Q: Which ones? A: Down where the tree grows through the wall. Q: Which wall? A: The Ashford wall. Q: And near the Ashford gate? A: Well, I can't say it's near it. In terms of the wall, it's about halfway down my property. Q: Here is Exhibit 85. Where have you jumped the fence on your property? A: Right about here [indicating]. Q: Okay. You are pointing to the tree on the east side -- northeast side where the word "Lawn" appears. Right? A: Yes. Q: And would you just climb over that fence? A: Well. there's a tree that grows through it, so you can kind of step on the branch -- maybe a little taller now than when I did it but you would have to step on the branch and then just go over the wall. Q: Then you're in the backyard? A: Yes. Q: When was the last time you did that? A: I don't know. '80s. Q: And have you ever gone over any of these other perimeter walls to your property? A: No. Q: Okay. And would you have been able to do so in June of 1994? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Speculation. Don't answer that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: How would one have jumped the walls? Where can you climb the walls on your property? I MR. ROBERT BAKER: Other than where he just told you? BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Yes, other than the one area in the northeast quadrant of your property that you just identified. MR. ROBERT BAKER: And when you say you can climb these walls, you mean him physically can climb any of the walls? MR. PETROCELLI: A person. A person. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Bruce Jenner maybe? MR. PETROCELLI: Bob Baker. MR. ROBERT BAKER: None. None without a crane. MR. KELLY: Pure speculation. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Again, Mr. Simpson. A: I don't know. I think a motivated person probably could climb the walls. Q: You could climb the fence -- MR. ROBERT BAKER: Your process server did it. MR. PETROCELLI: No, he didn't. Q: You could climb the fence at Rockingham. There are some trees around here [indicating] near the north of the Rockingham gate. Right? A: I never have, and I never have seen anyone do it. Q: Is it possible to do? A: I would think anything's possible, yes. Q: Now, you can get on the Salingers' property, which is on the south side, by simply walking from the sidewalk right up to the property. Correct? A: Yeah, down their driveway to their house, yes. Q: And then you can walk up to the south side of your property on the Salingers' side of the fence. Right? A: I suppose you could. Q: And you can walk all the way down that property until you come to the area opposite, oh, Kato Kaelin's room. Right? A: I really don't know. Q: Why not.? A: Because I don't know. Q: There is a carport back there, isn't there? A: Yes. Q: And you can climb on that carport and jump that fence, can't you? A: I don't know. Q: Do you think that's impossible to do? A: I think it would be very difficult. Q: Why? What would be the obstructions that you would encounter? A: Thick foliage. I haven't really looked at the carport, but I would imagine it would be pretty tough to just climb on top of a carport. I don't know if they have any lattice work that would help you climb up there or not.And it would seem to me, and I'm just flat-out guessing, that if you got as high as a roof, those -- the Eugenia bushes get thicker as they go up. I would imagine it would be dangerous coming through there. Q: The -- your property -- the level of your property is higher than the level of the Salingers'. Right? MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Where on his property, MR. PETROCELLI: South side there. MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Are you talking about his roof or the -- MR. PETROCELLI: No. The ground level. MR. ROBERT BAKER: The ground level? MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah. THE WITNESS: I would -- I believe so. I'm not a hundred percent sure of that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: By how many feet? Do you know? A: I don't know. Q: About three feet? A: I don't know. Q: So you know of no way along the south side of your property that you could, if you didn't have a key, get from the Salingers onto your property. Is that right? A: Unless you're climbing something. I don't know of a way to do it, no. Q: Is there an easy place to climb over on the south perimeter? Q: Across the south perimeter of your property? A: I've never really paid attention to it. Other than back here [Indicating] where that so-called glove was found, I don't -- I've never paid attention to it. Q: Well, since this whole situation occurred, have you investigated whether or not the fence could be climbed in that area opposite Kaelin's room? A: I looked at the fence and thought it would be difficult to climb that fence without sustaining some type of injury. I mean, it would be- -you'd have to be really motivated to do it. Q: What kind of injury might you sustain? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Speculation. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: You mean from the sharp edges on the top of the fence? A: Yes. Q: Okay. Going now to the east -- southeast corner of your property, is there a way to access the property from that corner or, for that matter, from the east side of the property? A: Not that I know of. Q: There is a neighbor whose property is directly east of yours? A: A couple of neighbors. Q: Yeah. Is that vacant land there? Do you know? A: No. Well, on one -- now the -- yeah. One of them is vacant, yes. Q: Was it vacant in June of '94? A: I don't know. Q: What separates your property from the neighbor directly to the east? A: Which one? Q: Right here in the corner [Indicating), southeast corner. A: I would imagine a fence and some pretty thick foliage. Q: And how high is that fence? A: I've never looked at it. Q: Is the fence that extends down the south side of your property between your house and the Salinger property the same height all the way down to the corner? A: I don't know. Q: And is there a fence that extends northerly from the southeast quadrant? A: I believe so, yes. Q: Same height as the south fence? A: I never looked at it. I don't know. Q: Okay. So do you know whether one could climb that fence if they were so motivated? A: I don't know. Q: The only time you're aware of anyone accessing your property without a key is when Justin did so with you? A: No. I know that various friends would climb the wall here [Indicating]. MR. PETROCELLI: One second. [Telephone interruption.] [Discussion held off the record.] BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Okay. Where on your property do you know your friends have jumped the wall or the fence to get on your property? A: Right about the area that I spoke of [Indicating). Q: Just in that northeast corner where the big tree is? A: Yeah. Q: That's the only place you're aware of? A: Yes. Q: Have you given anybody instructions at any time that if they need to get on your property without a key, that's the way to get on? A: I may have implied that, yes. Q: To whom? A: Years ago this guy Schulman used to have a basketball game, and they played at my house on weekends, friends of his, and not bother us in the house. If we were home or not, they would jump the wall there. Q: That's John Schulman? A: Ricky Schulman. Q: Rick Schulman. Is that Linda's husband? A: Yes. Q: The -- In your video you make a point of showing that if someone wanted to get inside the house from that pathway behind Kaelin's room, they could enter one of two doors: One into the laundry room and the other one into the garage. Do you recall that? A: Yes. Q: And you also point out that the garage door opens outward, so even if it were jammed up, you could still open the door. A: Yes. Q: Do you recall that? A: Yes. Q: Do you know what was in that garage where the door is on June 12, 1994? A: I think a -- I didn't know at the time. saw a picture in jail, and it appeared to be a -- kind of a chest. Q: A chest of drawers? A: No. I think it was an Oriental chest Of some sort and with some things on it. Q: Blocking the door? A: Yeah, blocking access to walk -- if you were trying to go that way, you would have had to climb the chest; then open the door. If you wanted to go from inside to outside. that's what it appeared. Q: What if you wanted to go from outside to inside? You would open the door and then you would -- A: Climb the chest. Q: Then you would be confronted with the chest? A: I would think so. Q: And how high is that chest? A: If I recall, probably this table [Indicating]. Q: Conference room table, about A: Yeah, maybe a little taller than this. Q: -- three feet, four feet. Is that about right? A: Yeah. Q: Okay. Was anything on that chest to your knowledge? A: I don't know. You know, I saw a picture, so I would have to see the picture to refresh myself. So other than that, I don't know. Q: Do you know whether there was anything in front of that chest such that if you moved the chest out of the way, you know, you would be confronted with some other obstacle? A: It would be pretty tough because I know my car is in there, so there must have been some -- had to be some room. I'm just guessing now, so you'd have to show me a picture. Otherwise I'm flat-out guessing. Q: I take it that was not a door that you used to enter into or leave from at or around June of 1994. Is that true? A: That's correct. Q: And when was the last time you recall using that door for access? A: The garage door? Q: Yeah. The one going out to the south side. MR. ROBERT BAKER: When you say "for access," do you mean to access to the house or to the garage? MR. PETROCELLI: To the house -- to the garage. THE WITNESS: As of when? BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: When is the last time you remember using the door? MR. ROBERT BAKER: Before June -- BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: June 12, 1994. A: Before June 12. Q: Yeah. A: I don't know. I don't have a memory of it. Q: Okay. A: I've used it, I know, but I just don't have a memory of when. Q: It had been a while since you used it it prior to June 12. Right? A: I would think so, but I'm not sure. Q: Was that door on the Westec alarm, that outside garage door? A: I doubt it. Q: And there is no keypad there, is there? A: No. Q: Is there a keypad on the door that goes into the residence from the garage? A: Yes. Q: On the outside of the door in the garage? A: Yes. Q: And the laundry room door, is that a door that you were -- you or others using your house used regularly in June 1994? A: I don't know about regularly, but it was a door that was used. Q: Do you know whether there was anything obstructing that door from being used in June of 1994, June 12th to be specific? A: Normally you could -- you could as if -- if I was -- the other day I went out that door, and there's always a little -- when you go to the various rooms and you take dirty laundry and you put it on it and you end up dropping that right there, so you have to kick it out of the side. Q: You have to kick what out of the side? A: This little laundry, you know Q: A basket? A: Yeah, a basket. Q: A plastic basket? A: Yeah. Q: So that would be the only thing that you believe would have been blocking that door, is a laundry basket? A: Sometimes you'll have an empty Sparkletts bottle or something there, but they're never any problem to move aside. Q: Does that door open inward or outward? A: I believe inward. Q: And is that door on the Westec or was that door on the Westec alarm in June of '94? A: I would think so. Q: Is there a keypad on the outside of that door? A: No. Q: Or on the inside? A: Near the inside but not at the inside. Q: Okay. When was the last time what was the last time prior to going to jail on June 17 that you were in the area of the air conditioner on that pathway behind Kaelin's room? A: On the 13th. Q: What were you there for on the 13th? A: There was talk about something was outside of Kato's room, and and I don't know. I think possibly that ski mask or -- I don't know. Something was found, and we walked out there to see what was out there. Q: This was in the evening? A: Yes. Q: This is after the police had left and you had come back from your office and you were at Rockingham. Right? A: Correct. Q: And it was dark out by then. Right? A: No. Q: Still light out? A: Yes. Q: What time was it? A: I don't know. 5:30, 6:00 o'clock maybe. Q: And who did you go back there with? A: I don't remember. I think Kardashian may have been with me, and there was somebody else with us, too, but I can't -- I can't recall. I know there was two or three of us that walked back there. Q: Now, what was your purpose in going back there? A: I don't know. Curiosity. Q: No other purpose? A: No other purpose I can think of. Q: And what did you determine, if anything, when you went back there? A: Nothing. Q: How did you get back there? A: Walked out of the washroom door. Q: That laundry room? A: Yes. Q: And were you able to walk past ---did you walk past the air conditioner? A: I didn't, no. Q: Are you able to? A: Yes. Q: Physically? A: Yes. Q: You can squeeze by it? A: Oh, yeah. Q: Okay. Between the air conditioner and the fence there is enough clearance for you to get by it? A: No. You kind of duck under it. Q: Duck under it? A: Yeah. Q: Before June 13 when was the last time you were back in that area? A: I don't recall. Q: When is the last time you know for sure you were back there? A: I -- for sure I don't know. I know I'd had to go back there a few times to do things like light the water -- I mean light the heater. Q: Where is the water -- the water heater? A: I guess -- no. Just the heater. The house heater goes out sometimes, and I had to go back there a few times for that and Q: Where is that heater? A: Right outside that door before you get down the walkway. Q: West of it? A: West of where the air conditioner is; east of the laundry room door. Q: On this map here, this sketch, Exhibit 85, you have "Kaelin's Room," right, and you have "Office." That's the office that adjoins Kaelin's room. Correct? A: Yes. Q: And then where is the laundry room? A: Here. The laundry room would be here [indicating]. Q: Okay.Just immediately cast of the garage. Right? A: Yeah. Q: And where is the heater? A: Heater is here [Indicating]. Q: Okay. So right about here [Indicating] I will put an H there. A: Yeah. Q: Okay. And when was the last time that you went to the heater before June 12,'94? A: I don't know. Q: So you have no recollection in 1994 of ever having been in that south pathway. Is that right? A: That's not correct. I know at some point in time I was back there for not only the heater, but also for the lighting. Sometimes I have power outages, and you have to go hit the whatever you call, switch, but I don't recall. Q: Where is the switch? A: Right here [Indicating]. Q: Right next to the heater? A: Yeah. Q: Okay. A: No. No. Right here [Indicating]. Across from here. Q: Right here [Indicating]? A: No. Q: Why don't you put it. [Witness complies.] Q: You put an X there. Okay? A: Yeah. MR. PETROCELLI: I will make this another exhibit. MR. ROBERT BAKER: Fine. MR. PETROCELLI: H for heater. X . . . Q: Now, do you have any other purpose in 1994 for going back in that south pathway.? A: No. Q: Okay. And are you telling us that you know for sure you went back there in 1994 before June 13? A: Yes. Q: And you did so in order to turn fix the lights or fix the heater? A: Yes. It's a regular occurrence at my house. Q: What is? A: Either the heater doesn't come on or one of the switches go off. So portions of my house, the light doesn't work. It's something that, you know -- and since I've been out of jail, I've done on numerous occasions. Q: Now, when you did that in 1994, did you -- how did you get to that location? I A: I'd go out the washroom door. Q: And then you would head west. Right? A: No. East. Q: East. Excuse me. And when was the last time before June 13, 1994 that you had gone down as far as Kaelin's room? A: I have no idea. Q: When was the last time in any year that you've been down there? A: I don't know. I don't have a recollection. I've done it, obviously, on occasions, but I don't have any recollection at this point. Q: Why do you say you have "done it obviously, on occasions"? A: Well, because it's my property. I built that. My cable wires run back there. We play a game with my kids that you can go anywhere on the property and hide, and, you know, some times you look back there if they're back there, those kinda things. Q: Do you recall you being back there in 1994? A: No. Q: Okay. In 1993? A: I'm sure I did, but I don't recall when and what. Q: And it was playing hide-and-seek with your kids? A: Possibly. Possibly. Q: Did you have any other reason for going as far as Kaelin's room? A: Yeah. Q: Why.? A: The fire department each year gives you a thing about your property, so you have to go and look and see what they tell you you got to move. Q: And what did they tell you.; A: Oh, from time to time you have wood. I think it was too much wood back there at one time. At one point it was the leaves had to be cut back. Q: Where would the wood be that had to be. moved? A: I believe it was all the way back here [Indicating]. Q: To the corner. Right.? A: I believe so, yes. Q: And when is the last time you recall going back there before June 13? A: I don't have a real memory of any specific time going back there. I just know I've been back there on numerous occasions. Q: If you had to go back there to get wood in that southeast corner, would you access that location from the other side of the property; from your backyard, that is? A: No. Q: You could. Right? A: I would imagine so, yes. Q: So right now, though, you don't have any specific recollection of going as far as back as Kaelin's room in 1993. Is that right? A: That's correct. Q: Okay. A: 1994, you said. Q: And 1993. A: I know I did. I just don't know specifically when and, you know, what. Q: What's the lighting back there? What was it in June of '94? A: Whatever God gave it. Q: There is no artificial lighting. Right? A: None. Q: So it's completely dark at night down there. Right? A: That's correct. Q: And that's what it was like in June of '94. Right? A: I believe so. Q: Does the neighbor have sprinklers that wet the south pathway? A: I don't know. Q: You know, get it wet when they go on? A: I don't know. MR. PETROCELLI: I will make a copy of this and mark that as Exhibit 100, I guess. [Plaintiffs' Exhibit 100 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.] BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Do you know whether the garage door was kept locked in June of 1994? A: Which door? Q: The one that leads from the garage to the south pathway. A: I don't have any specific thought of that, no, one way or the other. Q: Okay. And what about that laundry room door, was it kept locked? A: Kept locked. Q: And you had a master key. Right? A: Yes. Q: Which would have worked on the laundry room door. Right? A: Yes. Q: And the garage? A: I believe so, yes. It wasn't our the garage door was normally not kept locked. But... Q: Not kept locked? A: Normally not. I don't know if it was that period of time or not. Q: Did you the last three years before June of 1994 ever call someone to fix the heater? A: I'm sure I did. Q: Who did you call? Do you know? A: I don't handle that. Michelle you'd have to ask Michelle about those things. Q: And who handled the cable? A: Whoever does cable in the area. Q: Have you carried wood back to that corner of the house, the southeast corner? A: No. Q: How did the wood get there? A: I think they cut down a tree. Q: In that area? A: Yes. Q: Now, do you ever go there and get wood for your fireplace? A: No. Q: Do you know -- Excuse me. In June of 1994 did you know any of Nicole's neighbors at Bundy? A: No. No. Q: Do you know any of their names? A: No. Q: Did you ever speak to any of them? A: Yes. Q: Which ones? A: The person who shared the building that she was in, and I had an occasion to briefly talk to the person who lives just north of her. You know, they have a common -- well, just -- I don't know if they're condos or what, but the one just north of her. Q: Those are the only two neighbors you recall talking to? A: Yes. Q: And did you talk to them a number of occasions or just once? A: The neighbor that shared the building with her -- Q: Yeah. A: -- I talked to from time to time because our kids would play when he had his daughter, I believe. The neighbor to the north, only -- Nicole's in an argument with him and I kinda got into it a little bit, but that was the only time -- Q: That was about dogs? A: Dogs and leaves and dog doo. Q: When was that argument? A: In late May. Q: '94? A: Yes. Mid to late May. Q: Is that when you went over with your -- with Jason in the car -- I am sorry -- Justin? A: I don't believe so. Q: Was that another occasion? A: Yes. Q: Was that at night? A: I was coming over for -- I don't know. I don't know. It was in the afternoon. I do know that. I -- it was light, and it was afternoon. Q: Did there come a time after you split up with Nicole in May where you told her, as you had in previous years of your relationship, "I don't want to communicate with you except if it relates to the kids"? A: I don't think I ever -- after she. yelled at me, I think I told my office, and I think through the office she got the word. I know she called me after that, and I didn't return her call. So I don't think I technically ever said to her, "I don't want to communicate with you other than through the kids." I think I just started doing it. Q: Did you ask someone to convey that message for you, such as Cathy.? A: I don't think so. I don't think so. Q: And you believe she got that message because why? She was -- A: Because I wouldn't talk to her, wouldn't receive her calls, and she started getting letters from my office. Q: And she started getting calls -- A: Or she got a letter from my office. Q: One letter. Right? A: Yeah. And she called -- she called me a couple of times about the tickets, and I didn't communicate with her. I had Cathy communicate with her. Q: Did Nicole ask Cathy why you were not communicating with her? A: I don't know what Nicole asked her. Q: Do you know whether Cathy told Nicole that she didn't -- you did not want to communicate with her? A: No, I don't know that. Q: Okay. And you -- your recollection is that you never said that to her. Right? A: I just stopped. Yeah, my recollection is I never told her that. Q: Okay. And what is the date that you began -- what is the date that you stopped communicating with her except for the kids? A: I think whatever day she called and yelled at me, it was basically the next day I called and kinda left a message for her, and I might have -- I could be wrong. I might have said, "Don't call me." in that message, but I think I made it clear to her I didn't want any other communications with her or her communicating with my home or people in my home. And "communication" is not the right word. Of hassling people in my home would have been a better word. Q: And you never talked with Nicole again about your call to her or your message to her. Right? A: No. Even though we talked again. but I didn't talk to her again about that, no. Q: Okay. You heard at Kaelin's deposition, which you attended, some discussion of a dispute between Michelle and Nicole. Right? A: Yes. Q: Can you tell me what know about that dispute? A: What? I mean, she had an ongoing dispute with -- Q: Is it true that Michelle quit on account of Nicole? A: I don't know if that's -- Q: Is it true -- A: -- correct. Q: -- that Nicole hit Michelle? A: That's correct. Q: Okay. Tell me about that incident. A: The kids were at my house swimming with some -- with another kid or some other kids, and Nicole came over, and I was sitting in the backyard reading, and she came and sat next to me and she says, "I really can't be around here if Michelle's around here.' I said, "Why; She's just cleaning up." She says, "Well, you know how she just gets on my nerves." So I went into the kitchen and told Michelle, you know, Michelle, take the rest of the day off," which I've done on previous occasions. And Michelle said, "Okay, I just have to make your bed and finish the kitchen." I said, "Well. just do that and take the rest of the day off." And I came out and I told Nicole, "She's just gonna finish the kitchen and make the bed, and she's gonna take the rest of the day off." And the kids were trying to get me to turn the jacuzzi on, the heater on, so right at that area I went to the heater for about a minute or two. and when I walked out, Nicole was walking out of the house shaking, saying, "She drives me crazy. I hit her." And I said, "What do you mean, you hit her?" She said, "OJ., I know it's wrong. but I just can't take that woman, and I hit her." So I walked into the house, and Michelle was coming out of her bathroom, and her face was -- was beginning to show that she had been hit and was red, and she was crying and she was trying to call 911, but she was dialing 199, and then when she saw me she stopped and started venting at me, "Look what she did to my face." So I walked out and said to Nicole "What" -- she was getting the kids out of the pool at that point. "I mean, how" -- "I mean, you can't hit people." And she said, "I know. I know. I just can't that take that woman." And Nicole, as I went through the house, she went around the house, she put the kids in the car, and Michelle was crying, talking to me, and I just went to my office. Q: What day was that? A: I don't know. Q: What month was it? A: March. Q: 1994? A: Yes. Q: Did Michelle continue to work for you, or did she quit after that? A: I wouldn't let her stop. Nicole wanted me to fire her and I wouldn't. and I told her that And -- Nicole that, "This girl works for me and she's gonna work for me," and she knew in June that if we got back together she'd move, "but at this point she's gonna work for me until she finds another job. If it takes six months, she's gonna work for me for six months. If it takes a week, it'll be a week, but she's gonna stay here until she finds another job.' Michelle felt that it would be best for her to move on if -- because she knew I wanted the people around and they were coming around, and she didn't want to be in the way of that, and she -- I think the guy that she had worked for previous to me had coincidentally then called. He was going through a divorce and wanted her to come back to work for him, so she found a job. And then she kinda hung around for three weeks to try to train Gigi once they found Gigi, to try to work with Gigi on how to run the house, and then she went to her new job. Q: Did she leave your employ before you went to Cabo? A: I believe so. No, no. Before I went to -- before I went to Cabo, possibly. Possibly. Before I went -- I'm not a hundred percent sure. Q: How long had she been with you? A: On and off, 10, 12 years. Q: And she and Nicole had battled before? A: Not like this, no. They had had disagreements before, but they always stayed friendly whenever Nicole -- like when we split and Michelle was waiting -- working for me, I guess Nicole called her on numerous occasions to come over to help her and to baby-sit for her. Q: Did you ask Michelle to go get Nicole out of the police car in that 1989 incident? A: I don't think I asked her. I think she just did it on her own. Q: You did not ask her? A: I don't believe so, no. Q: Why did she do that? Do you know? A: I don't know. Nicole appeared to want to get out of the car, and Michelle was there saying, "Come back in the house," or whatever, and the police were keeping her from getting out of the car-or this policewoman was keeping her from getting out of the car. Q: You said in your video that you had some financial disagreements with Nicole in 1992 in connection with your divorce. What were they? A: She was convinced that she would not have enough money to live the way she wanted to live. Q: How much did she get a month? A: Nothing. Q: No spousal support? A: None. Q: just the 10,000 child support? A: Well, we had a buyout. We bought out for a lump of money. Q: How much did you give her? A: I don't recall. Q: What's the ballpark? A: I don't know. You'd have to look at - I'm sure you've got all the financial stuff. Q: The only -- Was it cash you gave her or real estate or both? A: Well, the real estate I had previously given her -- Q: The San Francisco place? A: San Francisco. So it was cash. She expressed to me that she needed to buy a certain house, so we made the deal for her to have the house. Cash between the two properties. Q: You mean with the cash and with the sale of the San Francisco property, she could buy another place? A: Yeah. She had a choice of buying a place up to whatever worth. I don't know. Q: Now, you were ordered to pay $10,000 a month -- A: Yes. Q: -- child support? A: Yes. Q: And you continued to pay that throughout your -- throughout Nicole's life? A: Yes. Q: And after she died did you continue to pay that? MR. ROBERT BAKER: You don't have to answer that. It's irrelevant to any issue in this case, and don't answer it. MR. PETROCELLI: I don't think it's irrelevant but I'm not going to persuade you. MR. KELLY: You guys want a ruling? MR. PETROCELLI: We will call the judge in Idaho. MR. BREWER: Could be Baker's first press conference. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Okay. You said that you did not regard Nicole's activities when she was following you in golf courses, to Mexico and to the house as stalking. You said that on your video. A: Yes. Q: What do you regard as stalking? A: I really don't know what stalking is. I've never experienced it, and I -- as I pointed Out. the -- I didn't think that's -- from what I gather, stalking to me is a very negative thing, and I thought Nicole was just trying to get back with a guy that she was in love with. and I didn't feel that she infringed upon my space during that period of time. Q: You think stalking involves infringing on your space? A: Yes. I think when someone makes you very uncomfortable, coming around, follow you and it makes the person being followed very uncomfortable, you know, that has to be an element in stalking. Q: In May and June of 1994 were you following Nicole anyplace? A: No. Q: Did you spend a whole day following Nicole? A: No. Q: Anybody who would say that would be lying. Is that right? A: Correct. Q: Do you recall driving by a restaurant on a Tuesday in early June and seeing Nicole and Judy having a meal in a restaurant? A: No. Q: And slowing down and stopping and looking through the glass at them? A: No. Q: That never happened? A: Never happened. Q: Did you ever tell anybody that you molded Nicole? A: I can't remember specifically. Q: Does that sound like something that you might have said? A: Nicole and I talked quite a bit, and we're friends, about, you know, women and men adjusting to another person, so, I mean, it's -- I don't recall specifically saying that, no. Q: Did you ever tell anybody that you molded Nicole in the sense that you took her as a young woman of 17 years old and turned her into the adult woman that she became? A: No. no, I don't -- I wouldn't say that's correct. I think in some areas I had some influence on Nicole, yes. Q: On what areas? A: Dress... You know. I don't know. Q: Besides dress, anything else? A: I don't know. Just in general I think Nicole and I was a good match for one another, and we probably picked up a lot of things from one another. I thought -- communication. I didn't -- I never thought Nicole was a good communicator, and I think she picked up some of her -- I don't think she ever became a good communicator either, but she certainly got better. Q: Were you a father figure to her? A: I hope not. Q: Did she ever say that to you? A: No. Q: Did you ever tell anybody in words or substance that you molded Nicole? A: I don't believe so. Q: That's not something that you would say. Is that right? A: I recall Nicole -- I recall at dinners with people, everybody's talking about -- Nicole used to always give me credit for, you know, from becoming a beach girl or whatever -- Q: What was the "whatever"? A: Whatever she was, you know, and those are conversations that we went out to dinner with couples, people talk about, I guess. Q: So she would give you the credit. You wouldn't take the credit. Is that what you're saying? A: I would like to think that I had something to do -- like she had something to do with who and what I am, I had something to do with who and what she is in areas. Q: What did Nicole credit you with doing for her? A: A lot of things. I think -- Q: Besides dress? A: -- changing her from a beach girl to whatever she was, where she felt relatively comfortable in any environment. Q: How did you change her? A: Exposed her to those things. Q: To different things? A: Yes. Q: Was it at your suggestion that Nicole had breast implants? A: No. Q: And breast surgery? A: Never been a breast man. MR. ROBERT BAKER: He didn't ask you that. BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did you ever use the expression "titty fairy"? A: All the times. Still do. Q: And what do you mean by that expression? A: Girls who got tits, I said "What, did the titty fairy visit?" Q: Now, did you ever say that the titty fairy visited Nicole? A: Yes. Q: To whom did you say that? A: Nicole and I was at dinner -- to whatever the conversation was. You know, these girls are very, very open about their breast jobs. In a restaurant, when Chris Kardashian had hers, her and Nicole and all the girls went in the bathroom to look at her breasts, and that's what started Nicole thinking about having a breast job. So there -- it's -- in West LA. it's a -- you know, it was, "Hey, look at my breast job." "Who did this?" "Look at my breast job." "Who did yours?" It's kind of a -- and I think all of her friends had breast jobs. Q: When did Nicole have hers? A: Late '80s, maybe it was early '90s. I'm not really sure. Q: It was not your suggestion? A: No. Q: Did you give your approval? A: I told her, "Just don't make them too big." Q: When you were in Puerto Rico, did you call Cora Fishman about Nicole's behavior? A: I called -- I believe I tried to call Cora to find out what was going- -if there was something the matter or what was going on, but she seemed to be having -- I don't know if I ever talked to Cora, because they were having problems, and then Nicole told -- you know what? I don't think I called Cora Fishman. I think I called Ron Fishman. I don't think I ever got to talk to Cora Fishman during this period of time. Q: Did you tell Cora around this period Of time: "What's going on here? I left Nicole in April. In Cabo we were like lovers. We were planning to be together. She was going to move in. You know, we had the best sex, you know. She was gonna go follow me in Florida, and then she was gonna go to Florida because there was a wedding there. She was going to go to Florida and she was gonna go to Puerto Rico with me and all of a sudden, what happened? What happened?" A: All of that, I don't think so, but in substance those are -- were my attitudes during the time I was in Puerto Rico. I don't recall having this conversation with Cora. I do know that Cora and Faye said to me about Nicole told them what a great couple of weeks we had and how much she was looking forward to meeting me in Florida, but something -- something -- something was going on. Q: You had made plans to meet in Florida? A: She was flying to meet me in Florida for a friend's wedding. Q: Were yo